"Until the TIMES of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.&qu

[Guest]

One of the canards of dispensationalism is to proclaim a literal vs. symbolic argument in the area of eschatology, and then brand anything other than the literal interpretation as liberal, less then faithful and dangerous Bible interpretation.

But dispensationalists then define the terms of what is to be taken literally, rather than applying a consistent hermeneutic that takes in culture, context, grammar and history. Hence, Israel always means national Israel, temple always means a physical structure, and Zion always speaks of land.

The issue is not literal versus symbolic, but how did Jesus and the apostles interpret the Old Testament scriptures they were working with?

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect," Hebrews 12:22-23

Here, Peter interprets a mountain and a city as being the church of God.

"But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;" 1 Peter 2:9

Who is the "you" that Peter is addressing when he applies Deuteronomy 7:6? Is Peter advocating the dangerous replacement theology? No, anyone who is in Christ, including the believeing Jews and Gentiles of his own day, are priests.

There are numerous quotes of Jesus and the apostles that demonstrate that the true has replaced the type, the substance has replaced the shadow, and land has been replaced by the Lord as the place of worship.

These are the issues. At the least, dispensationalists believe that one day, we will indeed return to types and shadows. Unfortunately, this would make Christ's covenant obsolete.

Perhaps dispensationalists would not believe this if they carefully considered the the outcome of their logic. In the meantime, their severe blind spot has led to erroneous theories, such as the "two people of God" concept, in order to cram a round theological presuppostion into a square hole.

[Jill]

Well I agree about Israel being brought back into the land in 1948 as ordained by God. I actually would also say that in Romans 11 Paul speaks to these issues with clarity. It is part and parcel to the end times and the end of this age. The times of the gentiles is the Church age. There will be a Jewish remnant that accepts the new Covenant after the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. I know Im labeled a dispensationlist since I beileve we can recognize times and seasons in Gods revealing His redemptive plan but thats o.k....names dont mean anything.
See ROMANS 11 25 -32

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.

Then if you go to Jeremiah 31 31-37
You will see that Covenant Paul was speaking of,so yes Gods remnant Israel is alive and well....and will play a last days part...also note that the sun moon and stars are still here...and so is Israel
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:

36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."

In His Service

Crusader

[Guest]

Hi Crusader,

Please don't think (you probably didn't) I use the term "dispensationalist" to denigrate anyone. I just think it's an efficient way to sum up a theology. If people hold to most, or all of the tenets of the system, I use the word "dispensationalist".

Regards,
JD

[_Sean]

Well I agree about Israel being brought back into the land in 1948 as ordained by God. I actually would also say that in Romans 11 Paul speaks to these issues with clarity. It is part and parcel to the end times and the end of this age. The times of the gentiles is the Church age. There will be a Jewish remnant that accepts the new Covenant after the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. I know Im labeled a dispensationlist since I beileve we can recognize times and seasons in Gods revealing His redemptive plan but thats o.k....names dont mean anything.
See ROMANS 11 25 -32

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.

I actually addressed this in a previous post, but instead of commenting on what I wrote about Romans 11, you just quote it again as if I haven't read Romans before. Nowhere in Romans does it say the Jews will go back to their land. Actually it says not all Israel is of Israel. Some are rejected because of unbelief, but others are not and some that are saved are Gentiles. Gentiles are part of Israel.

"a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, (ESV)

The unbelieving Jews are the ones hardened, the believing Jews are saved. The believeing Gentiels are grafted in and in this way all Israel is saved. Israel being Jew+Gentile believers. It's another way of saying all true Israel (Christians) are saved.

Then if you go to Jeremiah 31 31-37
You will see that Covenant Paul was speaking of,so yes Gods remnant Israel is alive and well....and will paly a last days part...also not that the sun moon and stars are wtill here...and so is Israel
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:

36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."

In His Service

Crusader

Didn't Jesus bring in the new covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31? And since it's with the house of Israel, that would again confirm the church is the house of Israel.

Also, remember what Jesus said:

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Jeremiah 31 says:

35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:

36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."

So if what Jesus said in Matthew 24 literally happends, then would you agree (keeping Jeremiah 31 in mind) that Israel would be cast off? Just a thought.

[Guest]

Thank you JD for your comments.

Could you please tell me if history records someone seating himself in the temple of God and proclaiming that he is God between the time frame of when Paul wrote 2 Thes. and 70 AD ? I'm not a total history buff and will be glad to change my view.

Roger

[Guest]

Sorry Sean....I just don't buy your arguement.

[Guest]

Zech 12.10 "And i will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me WHOM THEY PIERCED. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only Son and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. IN THAT DAY there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem.
13.1 "IN THAT DAY a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem ,for sin and uncleaness."
13.6 "And one will say to Him, what are these wounds between between your arms?" Then He will answer "Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

In that day? In what day? 70AD? Or still to come?

[_Sean]

Zech 12.10 "And i will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me WHOM THEY PIERCED. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only Son and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. IN THAT DAY there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem.
13.1 "IN THAT DAY a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem ,for sin and uncleaness."
13.6 "And one will say to Him, what are these wounds between your arms?" Then He will answer "Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

In that day? In what day? 70AD? Or still to come?

You mean 13:1?

Jesus called salvation, the Holy Spirit a fountain. This was poured out at Pentacost, and still is given out to this day.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."
Joh 4:11 The woman said to him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water?
Joh 4:12 Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock."
Joh 4:13 Jesus said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again,
Joh 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty forever. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."


Joh 7:37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink.
Joh 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"

When it says "As the scripture has said". Where else is this predicted besides Zech 13:1?

The living water is God. aka, being indwelt with the Holy Spirit:

Jer 2:13 for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water.

Jer 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you shall be put to shame; those who turn away from you shall be written in the earth, for they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living water.

We know when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Jews (Acts 2).

Act 2:1 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.


Just wondering, what do you think Zech 13:6 is referring to?

[_Sean]

Thank you JD for your comments.

Could you please tell me if history records someone seating himself in the temple of God and proclaiming that he is God between the time frame of when Paul wrote 2 Thes. and 70 AD ? I'm not a total history buff and will be glad to change my view.

Roger

And if there aren't records of this event? My point is to show this as a possibility, since Paul talked about "the temple of God" and futurists see this as a future rebuilt temple. Yet Paul makes no mention of this being anything other than the temple of God. If you insist it's the physical Jerusalem temple, then the burden of proof is on the futurist to show Paul meant something other than the temple standing when he wrote, since the information would make no sense to the thesolonians if Paul meant a different temple.

Besides, I understand the temple of God in 2 Thes 2 to be the Church, since this is how Paul addresses the church in other letters.

Again, the burden of proof is on the futurist to show that Paul meant a physical rebuilt temple 2,000 years removed from his letter, since there is no temple rebuilding predicted for the future. The book of Hebrews makes it clear that the tabernacle was a symbol of a heavenly reality that was removed when Christ entered the more perfect tabernacle not make with hands (Heb 9:1-28).


Seriously, if anyone really things God wants more temple(s), blood sacrifices and mozaic laws followed, they should read Hebrews carefully.

Heb 9:6 Now these things having been thus prepared, the priests go in continually into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services;
Heb 9:7 but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;
Heb 9:9 which is a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,

(remember, "time present". This was written before the temple was destroyed in 70AD)

Heb 9:10 being only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
Heb 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.

Christ coming ended the sacrificial system and changed the law:

Heb 7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.
Heb 7:13 For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
Heb 7:15 This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek,
Heb 7:16 who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.
Heb 7:17 For it is witnessed of him, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek."
Heb 7:18 On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness
Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Now can anyone honestly read this and think God is going to draw the Jews into their "land" to build a temple and offer sacrifices after doing away with all of it and changing the law (and changing the covenant)?
Again, this would be in direct rebellion against God.

Hebrews is written to Jewish Christians, it is telling them NOT to go back to the weak and beggary elements.

[Jill]

J.D.no harm with the word dispensationlist..I knew what you meant.