Partial Preterism & Full Preterism

[_Sean]

You said.......
I think 1 Corinthians 15 shows a clear timeline of events that transpire.

I totally agree with you. But in your many references to 1 Cor 15.......you leave out the most telling. That is verse 23.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It seems clear to me that at his coming/parousia, resurrection occurs. I think one only disagrees with this if they have certain presuppositions............which you said could be used against my post , earlier.........but that would only be the case if your first paragraph regarding what resurrection is, is clear. This is my other problem. I dont think its that clear at all, and this is why i am not so sure that the part. pret view holds up, and the scripture seems to favor a full pret. view.

Why is the resurrection section of 1 Cor 15 not clear? Paul argues that part very logically. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the resurrection occurs at "his coming". And since you see 70AD as "his coming" then it's a past event. Is this your conclusion?

If so, then why don't you go on to explain the rest of what happends when this "second coming" occurs, like the end of death the last enemy. If death is defeated then why is there still death? I thought Revelation 21-22 say there will be no more death, crying or pain. Is this not the same event?

Your argument for resurrection, and why it must be future is as follows......
. It would seem that the NT makes it clear that a physical resurrection is to be expected. Jesus resurrected physically and demonstrated that He was indeed physical. He said he would raise the believers to life on the "last day". And that there would be a time when all the dead would hear His voice and come out of their tombs.

Not exactly, I used 1 Cor 15 and Paul's argument as well as 2 Timothy 2:18 in my last post as reasons why the resurrection has not yet occurred. Jesus mentioned two resurrections and this is why Revelation mentions two resurrections, the first is spiritual and the second is physical. Which is why it mentions "Death and Hades" give up their dead.

The rest I covered in the last post.

[Guest]

Revelation 20:1-3 describes some of the details of the millenium. 20:4 also seems to me to be describing a different aspect of the same time period. And then there is this funny statement towards the end of vs. 5..."This is the first resurrection."

Is it saying that the resurrection at the end of the millenium is the first resurrection?

or

Is it making a parenthetical statement of the millenium.
In other words...Millenium = First Resurrection.

I tend to vote for the second because of the state of those that partake in the first resurrection. Vs. 6 says that they shall reign with Christ which is a characteristic of the millenium. That is unless there are more than one millenium.

Anyones thoughts would be great.

Even you Jimmy boy...My SunnySoCal neighbor.

8) Mike

[Guest]

Sean, just as an aside to this interesting discussion,

John mentions two resurrections. The first is being born of the spirit, or "born again". The second is physical "coming out of the tombs". That's why John says the time is coming "and now is". When he talks about hearing and understanding the spiritual teachings of Jesus (remember how many people didn't listen to Jesus because they didn't understand him?). Jesus then goes on in John 5 to talk about a time is (still future) coming when all the dead will hear and come out of their tombs.

That sounds like people began to be born of the Spirit/ born again prior to Jesus' death and resurrection. Is that what you're saying?

[Guest]

Thats a good thought ely, i was thinking about this myself, although its a problem for me and my view also. But, i think a better way to look at it, i think, is that when paul talks about resurrection, in the present tense, like in 1Cor 15 and eph. and maybe other places (gotta study this one), its referring to "regeneration"/resurrection....... And Jesus is speaking of something else.

Just a quick thought. I got to work on with this, per the many posts......and havent had time to go through it all yet, (you know, out here in america we got this football sabbath going on that i honor)

Thanks for the thought/challenge. I know its for Ely so i will wait to see the responses, but been thinking about those posts.........so

Peace and Love

jim

[_Sean]

Sean, just as an aside to this interesting discussion,

John mentions two resurrections. The first is being born of the spirit, or "born again". The second is physical "coming out of the tombs". That's why John says the time is coming "and now is". When he talks about hearing and understanding the spiritual teachings of Jesus (remember how many people didn't listen to Jesus because they didn't understand him?). Jesus then goes on in John 5 to talk about a time is (still future) coming when all the dead will hear and come out of their tombs.

That sounds like people began to be born of the Spirit/ born again prior to Jesus' death and resurrection. Is that what you're saying?

I'm not saying it, Jesus said it.
He could be referring to spiritual awakening and a hunger for spiritual things just prior to the Holy Spirit being poured out.
Or He could just mean that this is the "time" when this things are going to occur. Meaning, soon.
But, that's just a guess.

Thanks for the thought/challenge. I know its for Ely so i will wait to see the responses, but been thinking about those posts.........so

Peace and Love

jim

Thanks for your posts as well. Like I said before, I enjoy trying to understand other perspectives. It's not often I get to hear from someone with your perspective.

[Guest]

He could be referring to spiritual awakening and a hunger for spiritual things just prior to the Holy Spirit being poured out.
Or He could just mean that this is the "time" when this things are going to occur. Meaning, soon.
But, that's just a guess.

Hey Sean, I think I'd go along with something like your first idea. Anyway, don't let me de-rail the main topic.

[Guest]

Yeah, thanks Sean, i as well you.

I see your and others perspective now, i do think it is clever (it seems someone thinks i was being sarcastic). I understand now that your idea is that all time references to parousia being near, did happen, in judgment. But the verses talking about resurrection are thus future. That position would alleviate one of my biggest problems with any non-pret view, that being the meaning of the words used in time references. ( I could see holding to that position as a part. pret.), and being able to hold to inspiration of bible.

But................I still have some problems.

On the other thread regarding thess., i dont know if you saw my question, so i will post here.

The Day of the Lord is a time of judgment, (i read you threads on this), but as i looked at the Thess. question about When and for WHO it was(From PSYCHOMIKE), i kept reading into Ch. 2, which to me seems to equate the Day of the LORd with a Parousia.....but a Parousia with resurrection (i think).

Would this be what you think as well? And if so, would it put the resurrection on the same par as judgment, (at least on a time scale)??

P.S. I know there is so much more to discuss, but its getting so harrowing, i thought i would try to keep it simple until i think about these posts from you and steve and paidon, etc.

God bless..

jimd

[Guest]

Sean..........one other point that i am stuck on, is the resurrection. YOu mentioned the two types of resurrections. And i do agree that there seems to be different types....which one you say is physical, and since we havent seen that, it would make sense that the resurrection must yet still be future.

But i am not sure it must be physical, and therefore future (this is another place i get stuck). You mentioned in a your last post JOHN 5, for why this event would be future.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection oflife; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


This always makes me think of MAtt 27.

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Aside from that......i wonder if the resurrected body is something like rev 1 description of jesus.

Cuz i get the feel from Paul in his description of Resurrection body in Cor 15:35-45........that the physical body isnt necessarily the case.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

But could you point me to some other verses that demonstrate that when the resurrection happens, it will be a physical resurrection. This also might make necessary a physical universe as well. IS this seen in REv. 21-22, or anywhere else??

Thanks again.
Peace and Love

jim d.

[_Sean]

He could be referring to spiritual awakening and a hunger for spiritual things just prior to the Holy Spirit being poured out.
Or He could just mean that this is the "time" when this things are going to occur. Meaning, soon.
But, that's just a guess.

Hey Sean, I think I'd go along with something like your first idea. Anyway, don't let me de-rail the main topic.

Here are some reasons I feel that way, Jesus awakened a hunger in poeple (if they didn't already have it):

Luk 1:76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways,
Luk 1:77 to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins,

Luk 10:24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it."

[_Sean]

But................I still have some problems.

On the other thread regarding thess., i dont know if you saw my question, so i will post here.

The Day of the Lord is a time of judgment, (i read you threads on this), but as i looked at the Thess. question about When and for WHO it was(From PSYCHOMIKE), i kept reading into Ch. 2, which to me seems to equate the Day of the LORd with a Parousia.....but a Parousia with resurrection (i think).

Would this be what you think as well? And if so, would it put the resurrection on the same par as judgment, (at least on a time scale)??

P.S. I know there is so much more to discuss, but its getting so harrowing, i thought i would try to keep it simple until i think about these posts from you and steve and paidon, etc.

God bless..

jimd

I think I answered this in the other thread, let me know if it's not answered your questions. Put simply, Resurrection happends when the last enemy is defeated, death. Then all are judged and face their maker. Before that day there are many "day of the Lord" judgement events on people and nations just as there were in the OT prophets.

Remeber the letters to the seven churches in Revelation? Jesus thrreatend to "come" to "them"? Certainly this would be a different coming that "Look, He's coming on the clouds, every eye will see Him" etc.
There are many way's Jesus "comes" to people. In their recieving of the Holy Spirit:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

There is also coming in judgement, as the letters in Revelation reveal.