Interesting Vid

[TK]

Allyn- a couple of more questions-

in your view, will there be no future physical coming of Christ to the earth? (i.e. no future rapture)?

do you believe in a future "new heaven and new earth?" if so, when will this happen? if not, why?

thx,

TK

[christopher]

Thanks Allyn for taking the time to answer my questions and lay out your case.

To be honest, the theory seems a bit tenuous to me, but your arguments are at least coherent.

Lord bless.

[Allyn]

Allyn- a couple of more questions-

in your view, will there be no future physical coming of Christ to the earth? (i.e. no future rapture)?

Hi TK,
The NT only teaches one 2nd coming of Christ - however it is never stated as "2nd coming" - that's mans way of saying that Christ returns.

do you believe in a future "new heaven and new earth?" if so, when will this happen? if not, why?

thx,

TK

No, not per se. What I believe the NH and NE is depicting is the time we are all living in since the Gospel of Christ. It is a never ending time in which people are born and die - some to everlasting life and some to everlasting destruction. Isaiah 65 is one good example of this occurrance.

I believe the Isaiah accounts, the 2 Peter accounts and the Rev. accounts all are about God's dealings with man rather than a change in the literal, material constitution of the world itself.

[Allyn]

Thanks Allyn for taking the time to answer my questions and lay out your case.

To be honest, the theory seems a bit tenuous to me, but your arguments are at least coherent.

Lord bless.

You're welcome, Christopher, but what exactly would keep you from the full-preterist view? Is it that we Christians tend to project what was meant for the 1st century Christians into something for us yet to witness? In all the passages I have studied, what stuck out as most evident is that those people of that day were the true receivers of the message of the coming of Christ. The text is plainly saying this yet some still desire it to be for us rather than for those it was meant for.

[SteveF]

Hi Allyn, I certainly appreciate you thinking outside of the box. It seems to me though that you’ve undercut one of the strongest arguments in favour of the idea that we hold in our hands the teaching of the apostles in the scripture. The scripture, at that time, was not assembled into one group of books as it is today ( and many would say it was not even completed by 70 AD). They were various letters that were later assembled. The thing that seems to separate the scripture we hold from, say, the Gnostic gospels is the continuity of the scriptures being handed down through Christians all the way back to the apostles. I don’t think there’s any evidence that the epistles of Paul and the gospels were assembled before 70AD. In fact, I understand that the evidence would lead otherwise.

That being said, if all Christians were removed from the earth in 70AD, who would be around to say which letters/gospels are authoritative? Keep in mind, it’s not likely that one particular town would have possessed all the letters. They would have been scattered around many different locations.

From a personal standpoint. If there is no continuity then that would cast doubt in my mind that we do indeed have the apostles teaching in our hands since there would have been no Christians around to ensure it.

Steve

[Allyn]

Hi Allyn, I certainly appreciate you thinking outside of the box. It seems to me though that you’ve undercut one of the strongest arguments in favour of the idea that we hold in our hands the teaching of the apostles in the scripture. The scripture, at that time, was not assembled into one group of books as it is today ( and many would say it was not even completed by 70 AD). They were various letters that were later assembled. The thing that seems to separate the scripture we hold from, say, the Gnostic gospels is the continuity of the scriptures being handed down through Christians all the way back to the apostles. I don’t think there’s any evidence that the epistles of Paul and the gospels were assembled before 70AD. In fact, I understand that the evidence would lead otherwise.

That being said, if all Christians were removed from the earth in 70AD, who would be around to say which letters/gospels are authoritative? Keep in mind, it’s not likely that one particular town would have possessed all the letters. They would have been scattered around many different locations.

From a personal standpoint. If there is no continuity then that would cast doubt in my mind that we do indeed have the apostles teaching in our hands since there would have been no Christians around to ensure it.

Steve

Hi SteveF,

It is very hard for me to speak to the way the letters and the 4 Gospels were assembled after AD 70. I have a feeling, however, that God would still be able to do it and not disrupt the teachings and encouragements it provided to the original receipients of those writings. I know, personally, for example, that I would not need anything outside of Matthew, Mark amd Luke to get the understanding that Jesus was going to return within a generation. Even if no other inspired writings were found other than those three I would be able to grasp the message of warning and certain upheavel.

But lets not stop there and assume that the epistles and gosples otherwise had no harmony for they certainly did. These letters found their way throughout the whole 1st century church with some exceptions. Did those believers need an assembled book of inspired letters to understand from those who wrote them and were still alive in their day? Not from what I gather. We certainly know that not all that was said was put in writing and they in fact the Apostle Paul tells his churches on at least one occasion that he was reminding them of what he had already talked with them about when he was with them.

Continuity abound. Peter endorsed Pauls hard to understand words and cetainly all of the writers agreed with Jesus.

Lets take one letter and see how they were encouraged and comforted concerning the days that would soon be upon them:

(1 Thessalonians 1:9-10) 9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

(1 Thessalonians 2:19) 19 For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?

(1 Thessalonians 3:13) so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul assures these first century Thessalonians, just as Christ had assured his disciples, that some of them would be alive at the second coming of Christ. Now, lets look at verse 16 specifically

(1 Thessalonians 4:16) 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Let's compare that with the Olivet Discourse

(Mat 24:31 NASB) "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Unless there are multiple trumpet comings, these verses are speaking of the same event the gathering of the elect at the second coming of Christ. We have already established that Matthew 24:31 is in regards to the destruction of Israel, and that it would happen in the lifetime of the disciples. Paul is simply validating to the Thessalonians what Christ first voiced to the original Apostles years earlier.

(1 Thessalonians 5:1-11) 1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

(1 Thessalonians 5:23) 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

SteveF, if this letter was the only one the Thessolonians ever received would it not be enough to understand what was soon to take place? Furthermore if it was all we had would we still project those events to our yet future?

Far be it from me to think that God is not still working among His people. He is and the hope we have is still in Christ but the promise of His second coming was for those of the 1st century.

[TK]

and it still dont understand why there is no historical record of a mass disappearance.

what about the unsaved adult children of the christians who were supposedly raptured? didnt they wonder what happened to their parents? or brothers and sisters? some of the early christians may have been ex-govt officials-- wouldnt there have been some writing regarding this event?

and when will the Great White Throne Judgment take place? i always associated this with christ's 2nd coming.

TK

[Allyn]

and it still dont understand why there is no historical record of a mass disappearance.

what about the unsaved adult children of the christians who were supposedly raptured? didnt they wonder what happened to their parents? or brothers and sisters? some of the early christians may have been ex-govt officials-- wouldnt there have been some writing regarding this event?

and when will the Great White Throne Judgment take place? i always associated this with christ's 2nd coming.

TK

I simply cannot give you what you want, TK. With your reasoning don't you find it also peculiar that only 1 or 2 historians recorded the destruction of Jerusalem with all the millions of people involved with it at the time? This is why it is vitally important that we believe the Scriptures for what they say.

[Allyn]

In the original post TK titled it as Interesting Vid. But yet it left unanswered questions like when was this to happen (unlike Jesus Who said it would be in that generation), What impact it had upon those who watched as people were going about their daily lives (unlike what the inpired writers said time after time that what was coming would be accompanied by persecution and family seperations), where were the reporters covering this crucial moment, and was it only those in that city who heard the last trumpet and saw the sign of the Son of man in the air?

Personally it is much more believeable to me to accept that this event happened to those who truly were the ones all the NT was speaking to.

[darinhouston]

...we have the exact reasoning that futurists use against it being a 1st century event in that there is no historical record of it. This is exactly how it is reasonable that it did happen.

humula humula humula -- huh?! I'm not sure I follow that one.