When is a view fully preteristic?

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Mellontes
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Re: When is a view fully preteristic?

Post by Mellontes » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:09 pm

mattrose wrote:I'm not sure of the nature of the full-preterist theologies held by some on this board. Perhaps some point-blank questions are in order:

1. Do you view the resurrection and the ascension as basically the same? In other words, when we die, will we 'ascend' (so to speak) into the spiritual state and that will constitute the resurrection?

2. Will the physical world as we know it go on forever? Is there an end to history as we know it?

3. Will the graves of past Christians ever literally be opened?
Mr, Rose,

How about we strike a deal? I would be glad to respond to your questions as I have pretty much to everyone else's. However, I feel that their is a reluctance in those to whom I have asked questions on this forum to respond in kind. Therefore, I will make this one, small condition. If you can convince Paidion to answer my question of "Did Christ physically age" in regards to his theory that original sin meant to gradually grow old and die, then I will answer yours, but not before.

Blessings, Mellontes

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mattrose
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Re: When is a view fully preteristic?

Post by mattrose » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:31 pm

Haha, well that's up to Paidion I suppose. But fair enough!

God bless :)

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Paidion
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Re: When is a view fully preteristic?

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:06 pm

Mellontes you wrote:If you can convince Paidion to answer my question of "Did Christ physically age" in regards to his theory that original sin meant to gradually grow old and die, then I will answer yours, but not before.
Firstly I don't recall seeing your question, Mellontes. On what thread does it appear?

Secondly I don't hold a theory that "original sin" means to gradually grow old and die. I have no idea what you are claiming.

Thirdly I see no relation to the physical aging of Christ to any theory about "original sin".

Of course, Jesus aged physically. He was fully a human being. He was once a baby. He grew up. There is a record of his listening to the teachers in the temple, when He was 12 years old, and asking them questions. (Luke 2:46) He increased in wisdom and stature Luke 2:52. That being said, what is your question?
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Re: When is a view fully preteristic?

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:30 pm

Okay, I did a search of your posts, Mellontes, and I found your question.

It appears that you are reacting to the following statement I made:
I was suggesting that this physical dying process had not begun in Adam and Eve until they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Notice, I didn't speak here of the aging process, but of the dying process. But never mind. Assume that they are the same. What does Christ's aging have to do with anything? If Christ had not been killed, would He not have aged and eventually died? Was He not fully a human being? Or was He something other, as the gnostics believed, who stated that He stood up and gave great orations when He was a baby?

The fact that Jesus had a mortal body like everyone else in no way contradicts my statement that Adam and Eve became subject to death when rebelled against God by disobeying His command. On the day that they ate, the death process began. Of course, the sinful nature was passed on to their progeny also. If that's what you mean by "original sin",then I agree. However, if you hold to the classical notion of "orginal sin", that is, that everone inherits the actual sin of Adam and Eve, that all of us have in fact sinned through Adam and Eve, and are thereby guilty, I disagree.

In my understanding, Jesus not only inherited a mortal body from our first parents, Adam and Eve, but also inherited the same sinful tendency that we all inherit.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Though Jesus had the same human nature that we all have, He always overcame temptation and never sinned, for He always trusted in His Father, and carried out His Father's will. That is what makes Him "the pioneer of our faith". It is through faith that we can overcome sin by God's grace.

If it had been impossible for Him to sin, then the fact that He didn't sin would have been required no effort or faith on His part at all. He didn't overcome because of His divine attributes. If that had been the case, He wouldn't have been the pioneer who showed us the way. He would have simply been God clothed in flesh. But He divested Himself of all His divine attributes when He became man. The only thing He retained from what He was in His pre-incarnate state was His identity as the Son of God. Without His Father, He could do nothing.
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Re: When is a view fully preteristic?

Post by RickC » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:53 pm

Not to enter into debate but....
When is a view fully preteristic?
I'm relatively convinced or am leaning toward that: Matthew 24 was "fulfilled" during the time from the Death-Resurrection-Ascension of the Lord Jesus to: events leading up and prior to, during, and proximal to {before and after} 70AD. Yet I remain a "partial-futurist," {aka, partial-orthodox-preterist}, ;). Obviously, I couldn't explain all of this right now! At any rate, I think one or more of the "famous eschatology teachers" {I can't recall who offhand} believes about like I do.

Maybe I'm kind of off-topic....so anyways......Thanks, :)
Last edited by RickC on Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: When is a view fully preteristic?

Post by Douglas » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:20 pm

Thanks Paidion for your response brother.

The verses you provided from 1 Cor 15, at least from my perspective (and my perspectives in the past have been wrong, ;) ) do NOT rule out the possibility that upon physical death we instantly go to be with Christ.

What do you do with the theif on the cross in Luke 23 "“Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

I love learning and talking about our Lord and Saviour..... thanks for your patients with me.

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Re: When is a view fully preteristic?

Post by Mellontes » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:06 am

Paidion,

You are correct in assuming that "If Christ had not been killed, would He not have aged and eventually died?" and that is the whole point.

We know that Christ did not sin, for if He did He is not our Saviour for obvious reasons!

Therefore, if Christ did not sin (and He did not) then neither should He suffer the penalty for sin. Right? But according to your definition of original sin being "physical" in nature in that the "dying process began" Jesus did in fact suffer the penalty for sin because as you admitted, He would have died of natural causes if He was not killed. This is exactly why original sin is SPIRITUAL DEATH and has nothing whatsoever to do with physical death...

I would see original sin being physical in nature as blasphemy since God as Jesus "apparently" suffered the penalty for sin as He walked the earth. I think this is the greatest heresy of all...

Take the physical aspect out of original sin and Jesus could die of natural causes without paying the penalty for sin because this is how man was created in the first place - as a mortal needing food to survive (Genesis 1:29)!

Thanks for responding, Ted

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Mellontes
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Re: When is a view fully preteristic?

Post by Mellontes » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:12 am

mattrose wrote:I'm not sure of the nature of the full-preterist theologies held by some on this board. Perhaps some point-blank questions are in order:

1. Do you view the resurrection and the ascension as basically the same? In other words, when we die, will we 'ascend' (so to speak) into the spiritual state and that will constitute the resurrection? No. When we die we (the saints) go to be with the Lord, but it is not considered the resurrection.

2. Will the physical world as we know it go on forever? Is there an end to history as we know it? Scripture says nothing about the physical world ending.

3. Will the graves of past Christians ever literally be opened? No.


I deliberately did not answer in great deal because that would take a lot of time. Resurrection is the dead being made alive.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Blessings, Mellontes

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Re: When is a view fully preteristic?

Post by TK » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:30 am

Mellontes:

Just because Jesus inherited a "sin nature" does not make him culpable. When adam and eve sinned, things started to degenerate, much to the chagrin of later generations who were not directly responsible.

at another topic on this forum, I posted a statement from Oswald Chambers:
Sin is something I am born with and cannot touch— only God touches sin through redemption. It is through the Cross of Christ that God redeemed the entire human race from the possibility of damnation through the heredity of sin. God nowhere holds a person responsible for having the heredity of sin, and does not condemn anyone because of it. Condemnation comes when I realize that Jesus Christ came to deliver me from this heredity of sin, and yet I refuse to let Him do so.
Despite having "inherited" the sin problem, Jesus never sinned. Now THAT'S awesome.

TK

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Mellontes
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Re: When is a view fully preteristic?

Post by Mellontes » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:10 am

If sin has anything to do with physical death, then Jesus Christ suffered the penalty for sin. And if He suffered the penalty for sin, then He sinned! This is the issue.

Because of people's false concept of sin having to do with physical death, when they get saved they only become partially redeemed. They must wait to die in order to get their "new" body. I don't know about you but when I "got saved" I got fully redeemed, not partially redeemed.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25-26 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

You are stuck on what people say about what the Bible says instead of taking the Bible for what it says...

You guys work it out. I have already posted several Scriptures (as the two above) that show sin as being spiritual death. There are no Scriptures that even hint at sin being PHYSICAL death. Most of them just say "death" and leave off the spiritual (and physical) wording. But once you understand what went on in the garden about Adam NOT being created immortal (because of his need for sustenance) and that IN THE DAY he died, you should be able to get it IF you are not too tied into what other people say, like Oswald Chambers who has said many good things in the past...I am done on this topic. If you have a wrong view here, it spreads like wildfire throughout the NT...

Thanks for time, Ted

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