Hi, Jim I'm not making a distinction between judgement and his second coming. What I was trying to say is that I believe that the word return in Acts 1:11 is referring to his second coming. But again I could be wrong
and I'm willing to learn.
In like manner!
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_PAULESPINO
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_PAULESPINO
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Brothers,
I listened to the tape of Steve in the Book of Acts. Steve believed that Acts 1:11 is referring to the second coming of Christ. It does makes sense because Jesus was lifted up physically therefore in like manner He must return physically.
I listened to the tape of Steve in the Book of Acts. Steve believed that Acts 1:11 is referring to the second coming of Christ. It does makes sense because Jesus was lifted up physically therefore in like manner He must return physically.
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_Jim from covina
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If acts 1:11 is talking about a "coming" of jesus, and the "parousia" happened in 70 a.d., then it would be his 3rd coming.
I think part of the problem is that there is a built in meaning when we talk about "2nd coming".
It implies that this particular "parousia" will be the same as his "1st coming", which was a literal physical walking the earth type. I think the problem is that when we read about his "parousia" which is clearly associated with judgment........the word "second" is attached to it.....I.E. 2nd coming, and it is assumed that the meaning associated with that term is going to be an equivalent meaning defined by the first event, his physical coming from birth.
His "parousia" should just be defined as HIS coming, and thats it. IT then leaves out these assumptions we have, and then add to our definitions and meanings.....which may or may not be there. Hence the belief in a literal physical coming again. (whether its true or not). At least then, we will not add our presuppositions to these verses and construct worldviews based on them, but rather have them shaped by what the bible teaches.
IF Acts 1:11 is referring to his second coming, and he "came" in 70 A.d. , then they must be the same event.
Jd
I think part of the problem is that there is a built in meaning when we talk about "2nd coming".
It implies that this particular "parousia" will be the same as his "1st coming", which was a literal physical walking the earth type. I think the problem is that when we read about his "parousia" which is clearly associated with judgment........the word "second" is attached to it.....I.E. 2nd coming, and it is assumed that the meaning associated with that term is going to be an equivalent meaning defined by the first event, his physical coming from birth.
His "parousia" should just be defined as HIS coming, and thats it. IT then leaves out these assumptions we have, and then add to our definitions and meanings.....which may or may not be there. Hence the belief in a literal physical coming again. (whether its true or not). At least then, we will not add our presuppositions to these verses and construct worldviews based on them, but rather have them shaped by what the bible teaches.
IF Acts 1:11 is referring to his second coming, and he "came" in 70 A.d. , then they must be the same event.
Jd
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_PAULESPINO
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I understand the things you are trying to say but that does not mean that I agree. Any way are you a preterist? Just curious.
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_Jim from covina
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I assume thats to me paul.
I think i am. Full pret, that is.
I say think, cuz i dont know if i can accept either position, that being part. pret or full pret. with certainty.
But when i consider the verses, evidence, culture, etc., i lean toward the full pret. The time references get me the most. I know that ely and others have offered good points on those and other issues........but those still weigh heavy with me. Thats why i was questioning acts 1, and also the presuppositions toward those things. I am not doing it for arguments sake.
Peace,
jd
I think i am. Full pret, that is.
I say think, cuz i dont know if i can accept either position, that being part. pret or full pret. with certainty.
But when i consider the verses, evidence, culture, etc., i lean toward the full pret. The time references get me the most. I know that ely and others have offered good points on those and other issues........but those still weigh heavy with me. Thats why i was questioning acts 1, and also the presuppositions toward those things. I am not doing it for arguments sake.
Peace,
jd
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_PAULESPINO
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Thanks Jim for sharing that Jim. In Christ we are brothers.
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_STEVE7150
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If acts 1:11 is talking about a "coming" of jesus, and the "parousia" happened in 70 a.d., then it would be his 3rd coming.
Where is it said that a "parousia" happened in 70AD? I know there was a judgement in 70AD but you can have a judgement done through agents like the Roman army.
Where is it said that a "parousia" happened in 70AD? I know there was a judgement in 70AD but you can have a judgement done through agents like the Roman army.
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_Jim from covina
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Some of the "parousia's" are associated with 70a.d, such as the uses in the olivet discourse, james and peter say it was at hand/near.......etc.
its the view that most part. prets believe here on the forum. I am sure your familiar with it steve, since u have dialogued for a while with the brethren here.
jd
its the view that most part. prets believe here on the forum. I am sure your familiar with it steve, since u have dialogued for a while with the brethren here.
jd
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_STEVE7150
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Some of the "parousia's" are associated with 70a.d, such as the uses in the olivet discourse, james and peter say it was at hand/near.......etc.
To my knowledge the "day of the Lord" or judgement in 70AD was referred to but when we call it a parousia and place it on the level as the second coming then it seems to me to be confusing. I frankly don't understand how the destruction of Jerusalem can be equated to a worldwide event as the second coming. Jerusalem is just a city in a small country. Granted it's symbolic of the end of the old covenant but still it's a local event.
To my knowledge the "day of the Lord" or judgement in 70AD was referred to but when we call it a parousia and place it on the level as the second coming then it seems to me to be confusing. I frankly don't understand how the destruction of Jerusalem can be equated to a worldwide event as the second coming. Jerusalem is just a city in a small country. Granted it's symbolic of the end of the old covenant but still it's a local event.
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_psychohmike
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Hey Steve please read Isaiah 13 carefully. It should answer your last post.
Proclamation Against Babylon
1 The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.
2 “ Lift up a banner on the high mountain,
Raise your voice to them;
Wave your hand, that they may enter the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded My sanctified ones;
I have also called My mighty ones for My anger—
Those who rejoice in My exaltation.”
4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains,
Like that of many people!
A tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together!
The LORD of hosts musters
The army for battle.
5 They come from a far country,
From the end of heaven—
The LORD and His weapons of indignation,
To destroy the whole land.
VS. 5 KIND OF SOUNDS LIKE GOD USING ONE PEOPLE TO PUNISH ANOTHER...ROMANS--->JEWS
6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
ITS EVEN CALLED "THE DAY OF THE LORD." AND IT WAS "AT HAND"
7 Therefore all hands will be limp,
Every man’s heart will melt,
8 And they will be afraid.
Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them;
They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth;
They will be amazed at one another;
Their faces will be like flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
SOUNDS LIKE SUN, MOON AND STARS FROM OLIVET DISCOURSE.
11 “ I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
WOW...PUNISH THE WORLD??? FOR A LOCAL PEOPLES SIN???
12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold,
A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the LORD of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.
SHAKING OF HEAVEN AND EARTH TOO...SOUNDS FAMILIAR.
14 It shall be as the hunted gazelle,
And as a sheep that no man takes up;
Every man will turn to his own people,
And everyone will flee to his own land.
15 Everyone who is found will be thrust through,
And everyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
16 Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished.
AND WHO DID HE USE TO DO IT???
17 “ Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,
Who will not regard silver;
And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
18 Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces,
And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb;
Their eye will not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
The beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride,
Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It will never be inhabited,
Nor will it be settled from generation to generation;
Nor will the Arabian pitch tents there,
Nor will the shepherds make their sheepfolds there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert will lie there,
And their houses will be full of owls;
Ostriches will dwell there,
And wild goats will caper there.
22 The hyenas will howl in their citadels,
And jackals in their pleasant palaces.
Her time is near to come,
And her days will not be prolonged.”
THIS WAS A REGIONAL EVENT...WHERE GOD USED ANOTHER COUNTRIES ARMY. AND HE USED COSMIC DESTRUCTION TO DESCRIBE THE EVENTS SURROUNDING THE FALL OF BABYLON. MATTER OF FACT HE EVEN SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO PUNISH "THE WORLD."
PUNISH THE WORLD FOR A PEOPLES SIN...SOUNDS LIKE AD70 AND REVELATION TO ME!!!
Isaiah 13STEVE7150 wrote:Some of the "parousia's" are associated with 70a.d, such as the uses in the olivet discourse, james and peter say it was at hand/near.......etc.
To my knowledge the "day of the Lord" or judgement in 70AD was referred to but when we call it a parousia and place it on the level as the second coming then it seems to me to be confusing. I frankly don't understand how the destruction of Jerusalem can be equated to a worldwide event as the second coming. Jerusalem is just a city in a small country. Granted it's symbolic of the end of the old covenant but still it's a local event.
Proclamation Against Babylon
1 The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.
2 “ Lift up a banner on the high mountain,
Raise your voice to them;
Wave your hand, that they may enter the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded My sanctified ones;
I have also called My mighty ones for My anger—
Those who rejoice in My exaltation.”
4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains,
Like that of many people!
A tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together!
The LORD of hosts musters
The army for battle.
5 They come from a far country,
From the end of heaven—
The LORD and His weapons of indignation,
To destroy the whole land.
VS. 5 KIND OF SOUNDS LIKE GOD USING ONE PEOPLE TO PUNISH ANOTHER...ROMANS--->JEWS
6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
ITS EVEN CALLED "THE DAY OF THE LORD." AND IT WAS "AT HAND"
7 Therefore all hands will be limp,
Every man’s heart will melt,
8 And they will be afraid.
Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them;
They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth;
They will be amazed at one another;
Their faces will be like flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
SOUNDS LIKE SUN, MOON AND STARS FROM OLIVET DISCOURSE.
11 “ I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
WOW...PUNISH THE WORLD??? FOR A LOCAL PEOPLES SIN???
12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold,
A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the LORD of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.
SHAKING OF HEAVEN AND EARTH TOO...SOUNDS FAMILIAR.
14 It shall be as the hunted gazelle,
And as a sheep that no man takes up;
Every man will turn to his own people,
And everyone will flee to his own land.
15 Everyone who is found will be thrust through,
And everyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
16 Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished.
AND WHO DID HE USE TO DO IT???
17 “ Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,
Who will not regard silver;
And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
18 Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces,
And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb;
Their eye will not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
The beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride,
Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It will never be inhabited,
Nor will it be settled from generation to generation;
Nor will the Arabian pitch tents there,
Nor will the shepherds make their sheepfolds there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert will lie there,
And their houses will be full of owls;
Ostriches will dwell there,
And wild goats will caper there.
22 The hyenas will howl in their citadels,
And jackals in their pleasant palaces.
Her time is near to come,
And her days will not be prolonged.”
THIS WAS A REGIONAL EVENT...WHERE GOD USED ANOTHER COUNTRIES ARMY. AND HE USED COSMIC DESTRUCTION TO DESCRIBE THE EVENTS SURROUNDING THE FALL OF BABYLON. MATTER OF FACT HE EVEN SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO PUNISH "THE WORLD."
PUNISH THE WORLD FOR A PEOPLES SIN...SOUNDS LIKE AD70 AND REVELATION TO ME!!!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Soon means later, Near means far, and at hand means countless thousands of years off in the future.
Hermeneutics 101, Dallas Theological Seminary
Hermeneutics 101, Dallas Theological Seminary