Amills/ Prets and One World Government

End Times
_psychohmike
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Post by _psychohmike » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:13 am

Ephesians 2:4-6 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,"

#1 Dead
#2 Raised from dead
#3 Seated in heavenlies

1 Thes 4:16b-17 And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

#1 Dead
#2 Raised from dead
#3 Seated in heavenlies

See any similarities?

Is Paul speaking of the same thing in both of these passages?

mike
STEVE7150 wrote:I think you make a great case for full pret.
good work!

The only problem that i see is that you are concerned that others think its heretical.
So what!


Jim, the so what is, the dead were never raised and the world was never judged and i don't see a lake of fire. Do you?
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Reason:
Soon means later, Near means far, and at hand means countless thousands of years off in the future.

Hermeneutics 101, Dallas Theological Seminary

_psychohmike
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Location: lakewood, Ca.

Post by _psychohmike » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:45 am

STEVE7150 wrote:Jim, the so what is, the dead were never raised and the world was never judged and i don't see a lake of fire. Do you?
The dead were raised.
The old covenant world was judged.
And those that decided to stay in that old covenant world DID go to the "lake of fire."

Matthew 23:33-36 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Matthew 3:7-12 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The judgment came upon that generation just like Jesus said. If they weren't bearing fruit unto repentance, they were going to be thrown into the fire...the unquenchable fire. It was figurative language...a word picture that a first century Jew would have understood. Gehenna was the trash dump outside the city where maggots ate constantly and the stench of rotting burning flesh went up forever.

Go read about it...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

Old Covenant = Jerusalem from below = Lake of fire
New Covenant = Jerusalem from above = Everlasting life
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Soon means later, Near means far, and at hand means countless thousands of years off in the future.

Hermeneutics 101, Dallas Theological Seminary

_Jim from covina
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Post by _Jim from covina » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:58 am

Steve 7150......

YOu asked me..."Jim, the so what is, the dead were never raised and the world was never judged and i don't see a lake of fire. Do you?"

That is a matter of interpretation. (presuppositions)

My question was more along the lines of why be so concerned with this so-called "orthodoxy"?

How is it that the "fathers" were given the power to set the criteria?
What was their standard?

The bible.....of course, but back then there were many interpretations......and some of those "fathers" were later kicked out, ex-communicated, deemed heretical, yet at one time they were the "man"!

Its possible that they misunderstood. Thats been happening a long time in Church history. Church history is filled with NON-Christian lives and actions.

thanks....hope i made more clear what i was getting at.
jimd
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_PAULESPINO
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Post by _PAULESPINO » Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:38 am

Psychomike wrote:
In the New Testament, when figurative language is used, there is often an explanation. For example, Jesus explained the parable of the darnel I the field (called “weeds” by some translators)
This is not always true because in Matthew 7:6 Jesus said "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."
This statement of Jesus does not have a direct explanation compared to other parables.
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_PAULESPINO
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Post by _PAULESPINO » Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:46 am

My apology Psychomike It was Paidion whom I'm qouting.
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_psychohmike
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Post by _psychohmike » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:42 am

PAULESPINO wrote:My apology Psychomike It was Paidion whom I'm qouting.
No Problem...Good point. :lol:
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_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:31 am

1 Thes 4:16b-17 And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

#1 Dead
#2 Raised from dead
#3 Seated in heavenlies

See any similarities?


No Mike i don't, even though the words sound similar you're ignoring the context. Ephesians is written to believers about their position in relation to Christ during our life, that He is the head and we are the body.
1 Thes is written to believers who were worried that they missed Christ's second coming and reconciles to Acts 1 in which it's said Jesus will come back "in the same way."
The greek word is "tropos" in Acts 1 and means "in the same way" meaning visible so every eye may see him. And the raising of the dead is worldwide and for everyone and bodily and it's on the last day as Jesus said several times.
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_Ely
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Post by _Ely » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:49 am

I think Paidon's main point is that "sybolic" or "allegorical" doesn't mean "incomprehensible". The figures and images in Revelation are interpreted/ translated by Scripture. Often, they are interpreted in Revelation itself (i.e., the ten horns of the beast are ten kings, the dragon is Satan, etc.) and sometimes we can interpret them by referring to other books (i.e. the woman clothed with the sun is most likely a reference to Joseph's dream). When we consitently take the whole of Scripture, Revelaiton is not as obscure (esoteric?) as some make it out to be.

Also, I'd really like to hear some more preterist responses at my thread about those time texts (http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=1393 ).

Shalom
Ely
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_psychohmike
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Post by _psychohmike » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:05 pm

Ely wrote:I think Paidon's main point is that "sybolic" or "allegorical" doesn't mean "incomprehensible". The figures and images in Revelation are interpreted/ translated by Scripture. Often, they are interpreted in Revelation itself (i.e., the ten horns of the beast are ten kings, the dragon is Satan, etc.) and sometimes we can interpret them by referring to other books (i.e. the woman clothed with the sun is most likely a reference to Joseph's dream). When we consitently take the whole of Scripture, Revelaiton is not as obscure (esoteric?) as some make it out to be.

Also, I'd really like to hear some more preterist responses at my thread about those time texts (http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=1393 ).

Shalom
Ely
Your wish is my command: http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?p=16237#16237
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Soon means later, Near means far, and at hand means countless thousands of years off in the future.

Hermeneutics 101, Dallas Theological Seminary

_psychohmike
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Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:41 pm
Location: lakewood, Ca.

Post by _psychohmike » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:28 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:1 Thes 4:16b-17 And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

#1 Dead
#2 Raised from dead
#3 Seated in heavenlies

See any similarities?


No Mike i don't, even though the words sound similar you're ignoring the context. Ephesians is written to believers about their position in relation to Christ during our life, that He is the head and we are the body.
1 Thes is written to believers who were worried that they missed Christ's second coming and reconciles to Acts 1 in which it's said Jesus will come back "in the same way."
The greek word is "tropos" in Acts 1 and means "in the same way" meaning visible so every eye may see him. And the raising of the dead is worldwide and for everyone and bodily and it's on the last day as Jesus said several times.
You bring up a very interesting point. If at the Lord return heaven and earth are to pass away...Why didn't Paul just tell them to look outside. I mean seriously...If the elements were to melt with a fervent heat, then how could they have missed it? Seriously...if the sun was supposed to go dark, the moon turn to blood, bodies coming up out of the ground, etc., etc.

HOW COULD THEY HAVE MISSED IT.
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Reason:
Soon means later, Near means far, and at hand means countless thousands of years off in the future.

Hermeneutics 101, Dallas Theological Seminary

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