"Until the TIMES of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.&qu
Crusader, maybe it takes a simpleton like me to understand this stuff, and I do understand. I see right to the meaning of what Paul is saying. But you, after repeated illustrations, examples and just plain wording seem to continually miss the product of Sean and Steves efforts. So maybe its just time for you to let it go and just accept that we see it differently from you. I know you are welcome here and we will continue to field your statements but I see no resolution to this for you. You are satisfied with your understanding and that's probably ok with us.
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Reason:
Re: Hi
Honestly, I already have. Since you don't want me to repeat things over and over, you may go back and read my explanation of verse 25 in my previous posts.Crusader wrote:I would like you do simply answer the questions I asked regarding verse 25...if you wouldnt mind...feel free to really expand on it for me..
Crusader
This is the reason I've had to repeat myself. You don't respond to my explanation of the verse in question, but you re-ask what I think it means, after I already explained it. Either you haven't read it, or you overlooked it, or you want me to elaborate on a specific point more.
It seems like you saying: "What do you think Romans 11:25-26 mean Sean", I've explained my position several times and then you respond to that by saying "You keep repeating yourself".
Even you have to admit that I've already given my explanation. Why do you want to hear it again, given the comment about me repeating myself.
Do you want to know why I interpret Romans 11 the way I do? One reason is Ehpesians 2-3 and another is Galatians 3-4. Passages that explain in great detail the "mystery". Yet you have not commented on these passages. Why not? It would seem that others following this thread will read Eph 2-3 and Galatians 3-4 and see that there is only one "Israel", Jesus Christ as JD has already pointed out from Matthew's quote of Hosea 11:1.
You seem to assume that after the full number of Gentiles come in, something happends:
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
You seem to believe a covenant will be established later with the now blinded part of Israel. This problem is it says "this is my covenant when I take away their sins"
Here is what the two comings of Jesus look like:
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Jesus is not going to come again to turn "Israel" away from sin or to bear their sins, He already did that. When Jesus comes again it is to save those who eagerly are waiting for Him.
Tell me, are the blinded Jews eagerly waiting for Jesus' second coming?
Thier time for repentance is now, not later. Remember Matthew 25 and the Virgins who were waiting? Even those who were waiting were not prepared and cast out. Are you saying that you can not be prepared for Christs' coming and still be saved?
Paul is saying in Romans 11 that when an individual "branch" repents, it can be grafted in again. Not after the time of the Gentiles, but now.
Peter also says that now is the time, not later:
1Pe 2:10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
You should not be surprised that you can't find that fact that Gentiles are part of true Israel in the OT because it was a mystery that was not made known until the Apostles were told. You can't dig up an OT passage and say "Look, it's about Israel". Yes it is, and that includes Gentiles as later revelation has made known this mystery.
When you quote:
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Who is Paul speaking about in this passage?
Israel failed to obtain...the elect (non-hardened part of Israel see 1 Peter 2 above) did but the rest (rest of who I ask?) were hardened. The rest of Israel, which proves the elect in this sentence refers the elect Jews, elect Israel. The rest of Israel were herdened. Romans 11 is part of the same context of Romans 9&10. There are some Jews who are elect (Like Paul, Peter, John etc) and others who are not and they are the "rest" who are blinded. Paul is talking about both aspects of Israel in this one sentance. Just as he is in Romans 11:25-26. You've got the blinded part, the believing Gentile part and the believing Jewish part. The blinded part are cut off unless they repent. Since God's gift and call are irrevokeable, they always have an open offering from God to repent and be saved.
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Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Steve, I hate to correct your liberal, allegorical approach to the Bible.
You said, "When the full number of Gentiles have come in (along with the full number of believing Jews, who are coming in at the same time), "the mystery of God shall be complete" and Jesus will return."
See, there's a Gentile alive now who will receive Christ, and then the church made up of Jews and Gentiles (not to be confused with Israel) will be raptured. This is the fullness of the Gentiles coming in. At this point, God's prophetic timeclock will start ticking again, and He will begin working with the Jews, who are different from the Jews He worked with when He was saving them during the church age.
Now, since all the Church, made up of both Jew and Gentile Christians (and not to be confused with Israel), will be gone from the planet, we don't know who will be witnessing to the Jews, much less the Gentiles (who God won't be working with) during the Tribulation. Somehow, they will get saved, because God will unharden their hearts after ensconsing most of them in Hell for the last 2,000 years.
Steve, never confuse God's wonderful plan for Israel (not to be confused with His plan for Jews who receive Christ, during the church age).
These Jews who get saved during the Tribulation (Israel, not to be confused with the church) are not in the church, because the church made up of Jews (not to be confused with Israel) and Gentiles who make up the church, have already been raptured, so God could start working with the Jews (not the ones who were raptured, and thus not a part of Israel) again.
The Jews (not to be confused with raptured Jews) who get saved during the Tribulation witness to the Gentiles of the world. Lots get saved. They are not a part of the church (not to be confused with Israel) either. These, Steve, are called Tribulation saints (not to be confused with the church, made up of Jews and Gentiles who got raptured, not to be confused with Israel).
So, in heaven, there will be the church, made up of Jews and Gentiles, not to be confused with Israel, and Israel, made up of Jews, who are not the Jews who got saved prior to the rapture and thus make up part of the church, which is not to be confused with Israel, and Tribulation saints, who are Gentiles who get saved when God's prophetic timeclock awakens Him to save the Jews, who are not part of the church, which is not to be confused with Israel, because Israel is made up of Jews only, not Gentiles, who could be a part of the church, or the Tribulation saints, depending on where God's prophetic timeclock is.
So, there's the church made up of Jews and Gentiles, then Israel made up of Jews only, then Tribulation saints, made up of Gentiles.
See how simple eschatology is when you don't confuse the church with Israel?
Regards,
JD
You said, "When the full number of Gentiles have come in (along with the full number of believing Jews, who are coming in at the same time), "the mystery of God shall be complete" and Jesus will return."
See, there's a Gentile alive now who will receive Christ, and then the church made up of Jews and Gentiles (not to be confused with Israel) will be raptured. This is the fullness of the Gentiles coming in. At this point, God's prophetic timeclock will start ticking again, and He will begin working with the Jews, who are different from the Jews He worked with when He was saving them during the church age.
Now, since all the Church, made up of both Jew and Gentile Christians (and not to be confused with Israel), will be gone from the planet, we don't know who will be witnessing to the Jews, much less the Gentiles (who God won't be working with) during the Tribulation. Somehow, they will get saved, because God will unharden their hearts after ensconsing most of them in Hell for the last 2,000 years.
Steve, never confuse God's wonderful plan for Israel (not to be confused with His plan for Jews who receive Christ, during the church age).
These Jews who get saved during the Tribulation (Israel, not to be confused with the church) are not in the church, because the church made up of Jews (not to be confused with Israel) and Gentiles who make up the church, have already been raptured, so God could start working with the Jews (not the ones who were raptured, and thus not a part of Israel) again.
The Jews (not to be confused with raptured Jews) who get saved during the Tribulation witness to the Gentiles of the world. Lots get saved. They are not a part of the church (not to be confused with Israel) either. These, Steve, are called Tribulation saints (not to be confused with the church, made up of Jews and Gentiles who got raptured, not to be confused with Israel).
So, in heaven, there will be the church, made up of Jews and Gentiles, not to be confused with Israel, and Israel, made up of Jews, who are not the Jews who got saved prior to the rapture and thus make up part of the church, which is not to be confused with Israel, and Tribulation saints, who are Gentiles who get saved when God's prophetic timeclock awakens Him to save the Jews, who are not part of the church, which is not to be confused with Israel, because Israel is made up of Jews only, not Gentiles, who could be a part of the church, or the Tribulation saints, depending on where God's prophetic timeclock is.
So, there's the church made up of Jews and Gentiles, then Israel made up of Jews only, then Tribulation saints, made up of Gentiles.
See how simple eschatology is when you don't confuse the church with Israel?
Regards,
JD
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Reason:
Well-put, JD. Thanks for clearing things up so well. I now see why the average person can't be trusted to read the Bible and understand Christianity for himself, and why dispensational teachers are so badly needed to elucidate these esoteric concepts. I just wonder why God didn't send these teachers to help out the church anytime during her first 1800 years.
Blessings!
Blessings!
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Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Those of the foreknew - SAVED
Romans 11:1
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Those of the flesh - LOST
Romans 10:1
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness,
Romans 11:1
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Those of the flesh - LOST
Romans 10:1
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness,
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_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
It's clear to me that spiritual Israel are God's people and that there is no benefit to being ethnic Isreal. But the point of the thread was whether the rebirth of Israel was prophecized or just coincidence and whether the continuing turbulence around Israel is biblical or just coincidence. I'm tending to believe that Rev is not mostly about Jerusalem 70AD but about Jerusalem at different points in time over history and the three sets of judgements cover different times with the first being 70AD. There are so many things to consider but some are if you look at the last plague in Rev 16 it sounds like Christ's second coming. If you look at the nations that went into the pit in Ezekial and Isaiah although those specific countries don't exist all those lands are now muslim. In Rev 17.8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition."
Whatever tribulation we may have may be brief like 45 days for in Rev 18 we have 3 separate 1 hour periods mentioned. Multiply 1 hour x 360 and it comes to 15 days mentioned 3 times which ties in with Dan 12.11-12.
Is Rev just about Jerusalem 70AD or did God reveal anything to us about the end times? " Surely the Lord God DOES NOTHING ,unless He reveals His secret to His servents the prophets." Amos 3.7
Whatever tribulation we may have may be brief like 45 days for in Rev 18 we have 3 separate 1 hour periods mentioned. Multiply 1 hour x 360 and it comes to 15 days mentioned 3 times which ties in with Dan 12.11-12.
Is Rev just about Jerusalem 70AD or did God reveal anything to us about the end times? " Surely the Lord God DOES NOTHING ,unless He reveals His secret to His servents the prophets." Amos 3.7
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Reason:
Hi
Hi Steve1750
Its amazing that preterists say Revelation ocurred in 70 A.D. when it wasnt even written until around 95 A.D. Then when faced with such comments by Jesus as is found in Matthew 24:21...you are told by some who claim to be teachers that Jesus was speaking in hyperbole...and He really didnt mean what He was saying...when stacked up against World war one and two,and things like the holocast Jerusalem 70 A.D. was a pure and simple cake walk. Only one event will be the greatest distress and that is whats found in Revelation. The ultimate way to win a debate, is to not adress the words in the context in which they are found,or to say that the words themselves were really allegorical or hyperbole. I mean its an awesome tactic..yet it also shows how weak of a defense it actually is. When you do things like that an opposing view really has no way to refute anything and in so doing you can really have any theology you want. Jesus was asked a direct question and throught the context gave direct answers and wasnt speaking in hyperbole. Its like a magic marker...you just color everything the way you want. Revelation hasnt happened yet....and when it does you will know it...God is going to judge the world in Revelation....70 A.D. wasnt a judgement on the world...
Heres what Steve said about Mattew 24:21
You will not find us criticizing your doctrine without understanding what your doctrine teaches. This is the primary difference between you and your correspondents here. If you had taken any pains to understand the beliefs you are criticizing, you would know that Matthew 24:21 uses a common biblical hyperbole. This has been documented in other places at this forum. It is not necessary to say that AD 70 was the worst disaster in history in order to identify it with Jesus' prediction in Matthew 24:21
Heres what Jesus said...
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
What really must be a mind boggler for them though is Israel becomng a nation again...after God promised it. I hate to think what they think about Israel rebuilding a temple and even starting temple worship. Day by day when they open the paper or watch the news....they see Israel in the headlines...over and over and over...it really is way to cool...
Crusader
Its amazing that preterists say Revelation ocurred in 70 A.D. when it wasnt even written until around 95 A.D. Then when faced with such comments by Jesus as is found in Matthew 24:21...you are told by some who claim to be teachers that Jesus was speaking in hyperbole...and He really didnt mean what He was saying...when stacked up against World war one and two,and things like the holocast Jerusalem 70 A.D. was a pure and simple cake walk. Only one event will be the greatest distress and that is whats found in Revelation. The ultimate way to win a debate, is to not adress the words in the context in which they are found,or to say that the words themselves were really allegorical or hyperbole. I mean its an awesome tactic..yet it also shows how weak of a defense it actually is. When you do things like that an opposing view really has no way to refute anything and in so doing you can really have any theology you want. Jesus was asked a direct question and throught the context gave direct answers and wasnt speaking in hyperbole. Its like a magic marker...you just color everything the way you want. Revelation hasnt happened yet....and when it does you will know it...God is going to judge the world in Revelation....70 A.D. wasnt a judgement on the world...
Heres what Steve said about Mattew 24:21
You will not find us criticizing your doctrine without understanding what your doctrine teaches. This is the primary difference between you and your correspondents here. If you had taken any pains to understand the beliefs you are criticizing, you would know that Matthew 24:21 uses a common biblical hyperbole. This has been documented in other places at this forum. It is not necessary to say that AD 70 was the worst disaster in history in order to identify it with Jesus' prediction in Matthew 24:21
Heres what Jesus said...
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
What really must be a mind boggler for them though is Israel becomng a nation again...after God promised it. I hate to think what they think about Israel rebuilding a temple and even starting temple worship. Day by day when they open the paper or watch the news....they see Israel in the headlines...over and over and over...it really is way to cool...
Crusader
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
“Its amazing that preterists say Revelation ocurred in 70 A.D. when it wasnt even written
until around 95 A.D.”
Highly disputed quote by Iraneus, who also believed Jesus lived to be 50 years old. Is this your evidence, Crusader? Written in 95 A.D., when the temple had been levelled 25 years previously, but no mention of Israel’s 9/11? Hardly plausible. If your argument is that Revelation strictly deals with our days, and hence, there was no need to mention the temple having been destroyed, I would contend that it is typical of prophets to compare coming judgments with previous calamities. “Just as in the days of Noah . . .”
“Then when faced with such comments by Jesus as is found in Matthew 24:21...you are told by some who claim to be teachers that Jesus was speaking in hyperbole...and He really didnt mean what He was saying...when stacked up against World war one and two,and things like the holocast Jerusalem 70 A.D. was a pure and simple cake walk. Only
one event will be the greatest distress and that is whats found in Revelation.”
Well, when did God lie? Was it in Ezekiel 5:9? “And I will do among you what I have never done, and the like of which I will never do again, because of all your abominations.”
Or was it Matthew 24:21? "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
Your rationale here is the product of linear Western thinking. Crusader, if I tell you it’s raining cats and dogs, what is the literal meaning of that statement?
“The ultimate way to win a debate, is to not adress the words in the context in which they are found,”
The Good Ship Irony just docked.
“or to say that the words themselves were really allegorical or hyperbole. I mean its an awesome tactic..yet it also shows how weak of a defense it actually is.”
I don’t care if you respond to anything else I ask, but I do want to know this one thing: do you believe the Bible speaks of nuclear war, computer chips, and Cobra helicopters?
“When you do things like that an opposing view really has no way to refute anything and in so doing you can really have any theology you want.”
Yeah, things like setting everything you cannot understand into the future. You can have a theology that says the New Jerusalem is a satellite city that floats above the earth, thus giving two eternally distinct homes to God’s heavenly people, the Church, and God’s earthly people, Israel.
“Jesus was asked a direct question and throught the context gave direct answers and wasnt speaking in hyperbole.”
Wrong.
“Its like a magic marker...you just color everything the way you want.”
Or, an Etch-a-Sketch, where if one prediction doesn’t come true, you shake it up, re-draw the picture, and sell more books. Look out for the Russians, er, the Muslims, er, the Iraqis, er, the Iranians. I hope you don’t own any Hal Lindsey books. It has been documented that he plagiarizes his own material, changes the names of the geopolitical players, and re-sells the books.
“Revelation hasnt happened yet....and when it does you will know it...God is going to judge the world in Revelation....70 A.D. wasnt a judgement on the world...”
El beggo the questiono, amigo.
“Heres what Steve said about Mattew 24:21
You will not find us criticizing your doctrine without understanding what your doctrine teaches. This is the primary difference between you and your correspondents here. If you had taken any pains to understand the beliefs you are criticizing, you would know that Matthew 24:21 uses a common biblical hyperbole. This has been documented in other
places at this forum. It is not necessary to say that AD 70 was the worst disaster in history in order to identify it with Jesus' prediction in Matthew 24:21”
This Steve guy sounds sane.
“Heres what Jesus said...
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is
the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.”
He wasn't using hyperbole? Oh, it's 100 % literal? Then when he uses the direct address, "you", I'll interpret that to mean the "you" He was speaking to - the disciples. Ergo, they would see the things of which He spoke.
Or did He mean, "You (well, snicker snicker, not really you guys, but Jews 2,000 years from now)"?
“What really must be a mind boggler for them though is Israel becomng a nation again...after God promised it.”
Where is the promise from God that He would gather Christ-rejecting, integrated Jewish people into the land?
“I hate to think what they think about Israel rebuilding a temple and even starting temple worship.”
I think it’s blasphemous. “For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.” Hebrews 7:26-27
“For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those
sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. Then I said, 'Behold, I have come; In the volume of the book it is written of Me; To do Your will, O God.'"
Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering
repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.” Hebrews 10:1-13
Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in
spirit and truth." John 4:21-24
Apparently Jesus was left out of the loop. Care to clue Him in, Crusader?
“Day by day when they open the paper or watch the news....they see Israel in the headlines...over and over and over...”
I don’t know what this means.
“it really is way to cool...”
I’ll note that in my Bible next to the above passages. “Crusader thinks bulls and goats being sacrificed is really cool." Did you send money to the red heifer project?
Regards,
JD
until around 95 A.D.”
Highly disputed quote by Iraneus, who also believed Jesus lived to be 50 years old. Is this your evidence, Crusader? Written in 95 A.D., when the temple had been levelled 25 years previously, but no mention of Israel’s 9/11? Hardly plausible. If your argument is that Revelation strictly deals with our days, and hence, there was no need to mention the temple having been destroyed, I would contend that it is typical of prophets to compare coming judgments with previous calamities. “Just as in the days of Noah . . .”
“Then when faced with such comments by Jesus as is found in Matthew 24:21...you are told by some who claim to be teachers that Jesus was speaking in hyperbole...and He really didnt mean what He was saying...when stacked up against World war one and two,and things like the holocast Jerusalem 70 A.D. was a pure and simple cake walk. Only
one event will be the greatest distress and that is whats found in Revelation.”
Well, when did God lie? Was it in Ezekiel 5:9? “And I will do among you what I have never done, and the like of which I will never do again, because of all your abominations.”
Or was it Matthew 24:21? "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
Your rationale here is the product of linear Western thinking. Crusader, if I tell you it’s raining cats and dogs, what is the literal meaning of that statement?
“The ultimate way to win a debate, is to not adress the words in the context in which they are found,”
The Good Ship Irony just docked.
“or to say that the words themselves were really allegorical or hyperbole. I mean its an awesome tactic..yet it also shows how weak of a defense it actually is.”
I don’t care if you respond to anything else I ask, but I do want to know this one thing: do you believe the Bible speaks of nuclear war, computer chips, and Cobra helicopters?
“When you do things like that an opposing view really has no way to refute anything and in so doing you can really have any theology you want.”
Yeah, things like setting everything you cannot understand into the future. You can have a theology that says the New Jerusalem is a satellite city that floats above the earth, thus giving two eternally distinct homes to God’s heavenly people, the Church, and God’s earthly people, Israel.
“Jesus was asked a direct question and throught the context gave direct answers and wasnt speaking in hyperbole.”
Wrong.
“Its like a magic marker...you just color everything the way you want.”
Or, an Etch-a-Sketch, where if one prediction doesn’t come true, you shake it up, re-draw the picture, and sell more books. Look out for the Russians, er, the Muslims, er, the Iraqis, er, the Iranians. I hope you don’t own any Hal Lindsey books. It has been documented that he plagiarizes his own material, changes the names of the geopolitical players, and re-sells the books.
“Revelation hasnt happened yet....and when it does you will know it...God is going to judge the world in Revelation....70 A.D. wasnt a judgement on the world...”
El beggo the questiono, amigo.
“Heres what Steve said about Mattew 24:21
You will not find us criticizing your doctrine without understanding what your doctrine teaches. This is the primary difference between you and your correspondents here. If you had taken any pains to understand the beliefs you are criticizing, you would know that Matthew 24:21 uses a common biblical hyperbole. This has been documented in other
places at this forum. It is not necessary to say that AD 70 was the worst disaster in history in order to identify it with Jesus' prediction in Matthew 24:21”
This Steve guy sounds sane.
“Heres what Jesus said...
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is
the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.”
He wasn't using hyperbole? Oh, it's 100 % literal? Then when he uses the direct address, "you", I'll interpret that to mean the "you" He was speaking to - the disciples. Ergo, they would see the things of which He spoke.
Or did He mean, "You (well, snicker snicker, not really you guys, but Jews 2,000 years from now)"?
“What really must be a mind boggler for them though is Israel becomng a nation again...after God promised it.”
Where is the promise from God that He would gather Christ-rejecting, integrated Jewish people into the land?
“I hate to think what they think about Israel rebuilding a temple and even starting temple worship.”
I think it’s blasphemous. “For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.” Hebrews 7:26-27
“For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those
sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. Then I said, 'Behold, I have come; In the volume of the book it is written of Me; To do Your will, O God.'"
Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering
repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.” Hebrews 10:1-13
Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in
spirit and truth." John 4:21-24
Apparently Jesus was left out of the loop. Care to clue Him in, Crusader?
“Day by day when they open the paper or watch the news....they see Israel in the headlines...over and over and over...”
I don’t know what this means.
“it really is way to cool...”
I’ll note that in my Bible next to the above passages. “Crusader thinks bulls and goats being sacrificed is really cool." Did you send money to the red heifer project?
Regards,
JD
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_STEVE7150
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For that was seen not very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign".[2]
Crusader, I don't know greek but i'vr read that the phrase "for that was seen" could be translated as "for HE was seen" meaning John was seen not the vision of Revelation. If John wrote Rev in 95AD then he would have wriiten this complex vision in his 90s and then traveled up to Ephesia with primitive traveling equipment and then ministered to that church and then traveled to two other churches all this in his 90s and under persecution from Rome. Could God have supernaturally kept him alive? Yes but there is no indication of that in scripture and although i think i'm starting to believe an historical interpretation of Rev i think the internal evidence suggests it was written before 70AD and possibly before John wrote his gospel and his letters as Steve has suggested.
For example John first calls Jesus "The Word" around Rev 19 but in his gospel and 1st epistle he immediately calls Jesus "The Word" suggesting a new revelation had been given to him. John has no Olivet Discourse like the other gospel writers suggesting he already covered that material in Rev. In Chap 11 he is told to measure a temple in Jerusalem that sounds like it is presently existing and can be measured which would be pre 70AD.
Crusader, I don't know greek but i'vr read that the phrase "for that was seen" could be translated as "for HE was seen" meaning John was seen not the vision of Revelation. If John wrote Rev in 95AD then he would have wriiten this complex vision in his 90s and then traveled up to Ephesia with primitive traveling equipment and then ministered to that church and then traveled to two other churches all this in his 90s and under persecution from Rome. Could God have supernaturally kept him alive? Yes but there is no indication of that in scripture and although i think i'm starting to believe an historical interpretation of Rev i think the internal evidence suggests it was written before 70AD and possibly before John wrote his gospel and his letters as Steve has suggested.
For example John first calls Jesus "The Word" around Rev 19 but in his gospel and 1st epistle he immediately calls Jesus "The Word" suggesting a new revelation had been given to him. John has no Olivet Discourse like the other gospel writers suggesting he already covered that material in Rev. In Chap 11 he is told to measure a temple in Jerusalem that sounds like it is presently existing and can be measured which would be pre 70AD.
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Well the early church fathers believed it was written later around 95 or 96 A.D. and the preterist view really is quite new...
"During the time of the Reformation, men like Luther and Calvin began to uncover the truth of the Scriptures by the Spirit's leading. The man of sin, it was discovered, was the Pope, as he sat in the seat and office of Pontiff. In an attempt to dispel the aggressive attack against the office of the Pope in this regard, a Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-16 13) wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that all of Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. In this book he taught:
• Revelation chapters 1-11 describe the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
• Revelation chapters 12 - 19 were the overthrow of Roman paganism (the great harlot) and the conversion of the empire to the church.
• Revelation 20 describes the final persecutions by Antichrist, who is identified as Caesar Nero (54-68 AD.), and judgment.
• Revelation 21 -22 describe the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic Church. "
I mean so really all this fuss about peterisrts and Romans 11 is really a mute point because the majority of Christianity beleives in the testimony of the early church fathers who place John writing Revelation around 96 A.D....
Crusader
"During the time of the Reformation, men like Luther and Calvin began to uncover the truth of the Scriptures by the Spirit's leading. The man of sin, it was discovered, was the Pope, as he sat in the seat and office of Pontiff. In an attempt to dispel the aggressive attack against the office of the Pope in this regard, a Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-16 13) wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that all of Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. In this book he taught:
• Revelation chapters 1-11 describe the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
• Revelation chapters 12 - 19 were the overthrow of Roman paganism (the great harlot) and the conversion of the empire to the church.
• Revelation 20 describes the final persecutions by Antichrist, who is identified as Caesar Nero (54-68 AD.), and judgment.
• Revelation 21 -22 describe the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic Church. "
I mean so really all this fuss about peterisrts and Romans 11 is really a mute point because the majority of Christianity beleives in the testimony of the early church fathers who place John writing Revelation around 96 A.D....
Crusader
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