"Until the TIMES of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.&qu

[Guest]

Sean wrote

"(What do the Gentiles come in to? They are coming into Israel, Just as Paul says in Eph 2-3 and earlier in Romans 11 being grafted in. It says UNTIL. What does that mean? It means that all unbelievers will be hardened indefinately, since you have to repent and believe to be saved. If I say, Jesus was sinless until the resurrection, that does not mean He became a sinner after the resurrection. When Jesus says I will be with you until the end of the age, it doesn't mean that He's going to leave us at the end of the age. So when it says UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles, it does not mean that the hardness will end, because Paul never says it will end unless they repent, and this can happen, as you know BEFORE the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. So Paul isn't talking about that. If so, he wouldn't have tried to persuade some of them in this age (Rom 11:14). Unbelievers stay hardened unless they repent.)

Paul wrote

"25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   "The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
 27And this is[f] my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins."[g]

I must be blind Sean,please forgive my ineptness here,but for the life of me I cant see anywhere here where it says that the Gentiles are coming into Israel. I was always under the impresson that they were coming into the Church,the Body of Christ. Paul clearly says "Israel has experienced a hardening UNTIL the fullness of gentiles comes in." You cant really escape the explicit language carefully detailed in that thought..where Paul says a hardness until the fullness of Gentiles comes in...you can try to explain it away..but the words themselves really are quite clear... a hardness for a time...in fact it even gets worse for your position...for a few verses above...Paul said this...

   "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
      eyes so that they could not see
      and ears so that they could not hear,
   to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
   "May their table become a snare and a trap,
      a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
 10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
      and their backs be bent forever."[e]


Who gave them a spirit of stupor...well it wasnt satan ....ooooops...it was God Himself...now if He gave it to them...Who do you think is going to remove it? God says, He will later on and when after the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.....these words are most unsettling for preterists I will grant you that but they are also quite clear on the matter.

Crusader

[_Steve]

Actually, Crusader, the verse you last quoted agrees better with amillennialism than with your views. You quoted Romans 11:10—

"May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

This verse speaks of their eyes being darkened and their backs bent "forever," does it not? Where are you getting the idea that a condition God said to be "forever" is going to be reversed by God in the future? When will He do this? After "forever" is past?

Also, what is it about this passage that you think embarrasses "preterists"? I see nothing relevant to preterism in the verse. We have no more difficulty than you have in recognizing God as the instigator of judicial blindness upon those who reject Him.

However, not all Israel do reject Him, and thus this blindness is not imposed upon the whole race of Jews. The ones whom He has blinded are never said to be later "unblinded."

Where are you finding your ideas in verses like these?

[Guest]

Crusader, you got it!

"I was always under the impresson that they were coming into the Church,the Body of Christ."

"and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."' Matthew 2:15

"When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son." Hosea 11:1

Jesus is called Israel! When we come into Christ, we come into Israel!

Welcome to the secret order of preterists.

Regards,
JD

[Guest]

Crusader, you got it!

"I was always under the impresson that they were coming into the Church,the Body of Christ."

"and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."' Matthew 2:15

"When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son." Hosea 11:1

Jesus is called Israel! When we come into Christ, we come into Israel!

Welcome to the secret order of preterists.

Regards,
JD

Nicely put.

[Guest]

I must be blind Sean,please forgive my ineptness here,but for the life of me I cant see anywhere here where it says that the Gentiles are coming into Israel.

Read Ephesians 2-3, also written by Paul, also called the "mystery" by Paul. Paul says "in this way all Israel will be saved"

Meaning Jews that are not hardened+Gentile believers=All Israel

I was always under the impresson that they were coming into the Church,the Body of Christ.

The body of Christ is one in the same as Israel. JD made that point abundantly clear in his quote above.

Your in trouble here, because you just made clear something I have pointed out several times. You can't be saved unless you come to Christ. If you say that one day the Jews will no longer be blinded, then what does that mean? It means they will accept the Messiah, thereby including them into the body of Christ, the Church. If you continue to say they never come into the Church, you are saying they never come to Christ. So then how can they be saved?

Paul clearly says "Israel has experienced a hardening UNTIL the fullness of gentiles comes in." You cant really escape the explicit language carefully detailed in that thought..where Paul says a hardness until the fullness of Gentiles comes in...you can try to explain it away..but the words themselves really are quite clear... a hardness for a time...

Sorry but you better read it again, it says:
"Israel has experienced a parital hardening UNTIL the fullness of gentiles comes in."

Can you explain why you left this out? What does partial mean? Does it mean all Jews? If all Jews are hardened then how is Paul not hardened, and other Jews like him? The Jews that are hardened are the ones that God has hardened because they rejected His Son:

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“ Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

This is right after Paul says only a remnant will be saved

Paul goes on to say:

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Then he says:

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Does this mean they are blinded by God and cannot repent? Or that they are blinded by God until they repent, even being provoked into repentance.

Paul says it happened to provoke them to jealousy. But how can they be provoked if they can't repent until after the rapture of the Church?

Paul has already stated why the Jews, in general have been blinded. It's because they reject the Messiah. If they turn to the Messiah, they will be saved. God is able to graft them in again.

Like I said, you can argue that ALL ISRAEL being saved is only Jews, but we know there is only one way to be saved. It isn't by going to Palistine. Or going through the tribulation. It's by repentance and belief in Christ. Anyone who believes on Christ is part of His body, the Church. So weather you want to debate when these hardened Jews come into the Church, the point is that all those who are saved are in the body of Christ, the Church.

Romans 11 also says: This is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.

Tell me, how are your sins taken away if not by coming to Christ. Again, once you see that coming to Christ is coming into His body the Church, you realize that dispensationalism is incorrect. The only people of God belong to Christ and are redeemed by Him.

in fact it even gets worse for your position...for a few verses above...Paul said this...

   "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
      eyes so that they could not see
      and ears so that they could not hear,
   to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
   "May their table become a snare and a trap,
      a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
 10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
      and their backs be bent forever."[e]


Who gave them a spirit of stupor...well it wasnt satan ....ooooops...it was God Himself...now if He gave it to them...Who do you think is going to remove it? God says, He will later on and when after the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.....these words are most unsettling for preterists I will grant you that but they are also quite clear on the matter.

Crusader

Steve has given the answer to this above. Besides, they are hardened because they stumble over Christ. Are you saying that they will one day be saved without accepting Christ? Is there another way to be saved?

[Guest]

Sean wrote

Sorry but you better read it again, it says:
"Israel has experienced a partial hardening UNTIL the fullness of gentiles comes in."

Well Sean I didn't leave it out to trick you or gain some upper hand in this debate because it wouldn't be necessary,the best argument is really Gods Word itself,something you really cant explain away because its very plain,I simply had a typo because if you look at all my other posts, its in there and really is easy to explain.The words in part or partial still do nothing to get preterists over the huge pinnacle of Romans 11 where Paul addresses the Israel and the Church. If Paul in any way had intended to say that the door was shut on Israel he sure would have done it in Romans 11,but he doesnt..in fact he does quite the opposite. When you read these words you really are left without an escape Sean and you have yet to explain it. To start with, the words partial mean one of two things or possibly both...it means that the stupor which has blinded Israel is in part as it relates to the number of people because clearly Jews where and are getting saved,or it means that its partial in that its not permanent. We know from Romans 11 that God did it,"

" God has given them a spirit of stupor,
       Eyes that they should not see
      And ears that they should not hear,
      To this very day. " 11:8


We also know that its temporary until the fulness of the gentiles comes in

" For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"

Now there you have the great conundrum facing preterist replacement theology. If as you say that the Israel mentioned here is the Church then you've just created a illogical redundancy or greek suicide. The blindness happened to Israel,yet you say the Church is Israel. Did God blind believers? If so how did they get saved? The blindness is a blindness affecting Israel and its a blindness to the Gospel, yet even more explicitly its a blindness of Israel in part to the Messiah. So if you read this in context with Romans 11 a chapter dedicated to explaining the relationship with the Church and Israel you see these words mean what they say and the order cannot be reversed. Blindness to Israel in part until the fulness of the gentiles comes in. Your attempts Sean to change terminology, and timing of events have to be measured against the Word. Frankly its not a sound position really.

Of course this should have been evident in Pauls first words in Romans where he plainly identifies the Israel hes going to be speaking of..

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”?[a] 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

So these words stand Sean and they refute replacement theology...we absolutely emphatically unequivocally are not Israel spoken of in Romans 11...


Maranatha

Crusader

[_Steve]

Crusader,

I wonder if you have read any of Sean's arguments (or mine), since you are not making any effort to interact with them, and you are simply quoting the same scriptures that he has repeatedly answered, but you are not showing that his answers are invalid. You just keep saying, "The scriptures are plain!" If they are as plain as you seem to think they are, why have most Christians throughout history (and a huge percentage of Christians today) been incapable of finding your doctrines in this text?

I think one hurdle that is consistently stumbling you is your assumption that Israel always refers to the same thing. In your view, Israel is always ethnic Israel, and you are assuming that "replacement theology" sees every reference to Israel as the church. What you are apparently not aware of (and I hope pointing it out to you may make you aware of it, though I am not too optimistic) is that "Israel" is used different ways in scripture:

1. The word referred to an individual, also known as Jacob.

2. In scripture, the word often means the people who came out of Egypt and became a nation at Sinai. Scripture tells us this was a "mixed multitude" which included some Egyptians, but it was mostly ethnic descentands from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

3. Sometimes Israel refers to the political State of Israel—which is why we can talk about the restoration of "Israel" from non-existence, in 1948, without suggesting that the race of the Jews was non-existent prior to that.

4. "Israel" can also speak of a geographical place, namely, the land of Palestine.

5. Many of the promises of the Old Testament to "Israel" refer only to the remnant of Israel, that is, the portion of the nation that was faithful to God's covenant.

6. In the New Testament, while all of the previous meanings from the Old Testament are retained, there is the additional idea (the "mystery") revealed, that believing, uncircumcized Gentiles are no longer excluded from "the commonwealth of Israel" (Eph.2:11ff), and have been grafted into Israel (the olive tree) so as to belong to Israel in the same sense that faithful Jews (branches not cut-off for their unbelief) belong (Rom.11:16ff). This "Israel" (the olive tree), being comprised of believing Jews and believing Gentiles, is also what the Bible calls "the Church" or the "body of Christ."

The discussion in Romans 9 through 11 is confusing until you notice that Paul, in different statements, is using the word "Israel" in more than one way. This is evident right at the beginning of the discussion, where Paul says, "Not all are Israel who are of Israel" (Rom.9:6). This makes no sense, if Israel means "ethnic Israel" in both occurrences. Paul thus begins his discussion by cluing us in that he is going to use the word "Israel" two different ways.

When Paul says, in Romans 11:26—"In this way all Israel will be saved," we ought to be on our guard that this cannot be speaking of ethnic Israel for several reasons:

1. He claims that all Israel being saved is the result of the fulness of the Gentiles being added in;

2. He has just (in the immediate preceding context) described the "saved Israel" as an olive tree, having both Jewish and Gentile components (branches);

3. Paul acknowledges that many Jews are blinded and are dying in their sins, which precludes their being included in the "Israel" that is saved, though they are part of ethnic Israel;

4. Earlier in the same discussion, Paul has already declared that only a remnant of ethnic Israelites—not all Israelites—will ever be saved (Rom.9:27);

5. When Paul addresses the question of whether God has cast off all ethnic Israel, he mentions (as the ones that God has not cast off) only those "whom He foreknew" (Rom.11:11-2). This is a clear reference to those who are Christians (at least this was the case three chapters earlier—8:29-30). To the question, "Has God cast off [all of] the Jews?" Paul's answer is, "No, He has saved a remnant (who are now Christians), of whom I myself am an example. The rest have indeed been cast off ("hardened" and "blinded"—Rom. 11:7-10)."

Paul thus says that only a remnant of ethnic Israelites will be saved, which are the ones that God foreknew (i.e., the Jews who have become disciples of Christ, whom Paul regards as branches who were not broken off the olive tree).

I trust this is not too complex. It seems unmistakable that Paul teaches all these things. If so, then we need to recognize (from context), case-by-case, when Paul is using the word Israel to speak of ethnic Israel (most of whom will not be saved, according to Paul) and when he is referring to the reconstituted Israel (comprised of all the branches on the olive tree, whether Jew or Gentile—all of whom, says Paul, "shall be saved").

Distinguishing between these two is not as difficult as some might imagine. It only requires paying attention to Paul's entire flow of thought, rather than drawing out a few isolated verses and trying to assign meaning to them without consulting their context.

So-called "replacement theology" does not argue that Israel (the olive tree) has been "replaced" by a new "Church" tree. It teaches that Gentile branches that have believed have been grafted in where unbelieving Jewish branches were removed—thus "replacing" the missing branches, not the tree. If one can set aside his doctrinal agenda momentarily and look at Paul's actual statements in Romans 9 through 11, he can hardly miss this.

[Guest]

We also know that its temporary until the fulness of the gentiles comes in

It does not say temporary.

" For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"

Now there you have the great conundrum facing preterist replacement theology. If as you say that the Israel mentioned here is the Church then you've just created a illogical redundancy or greek suicide. The blindness happened to Israel,yet you say the Church is Israel. Did God blind believers?

Amazing. If you really think that's what I mean I'll restate what I mean.

Israel (Jews) are partially hardened, some are saved (those God foreknew) and others who reject Christ are blinded, these are the part of Israel that are hardened. Gentiles are being added to believingIsrael (the remnant that God foreknew) as grafted in branches. So Paul concludes by saying...not that after the times of the Gentiles Jews will be saved, but that IN THIS WAY all Israel (true Israel, those with circumcised hearts, true children of Abraham by faith Rom 2-4) will be saved. In what way? Well, what did Paul just say? He said although some Jews would be hardened (and cut off) the remnant would be saved along with Gentiles coming in (or grafted on). He's restating what he has already said.

Paul is saying, this is how all Israel will be saved. First, Israel consists of all believers in Christ. Read Eph 2-3 and Paul will explain this mystery. Second, those Jews who reject Christ are those who are the part of Israel that are hardened. These stay hardened until they accept Christ or die in unbelief. Third, Gentiles are being added on NOT TO the part of Israel that is hardened, but to the root that is holy, again, Gentiles are not being grafted onto the broken off branches, but to the root that is holy (true Israel). Remeber, it is Paul who said that not all Israel is of Israel. He makes a distinction between true Israel (believers) and unbelieving Israel.

I could ask you the same type of counter-question. How many Israel's are there? Is there only a past and then going to be a future Israel after the Gentiles come in? If so, then where is Israel today? Has your theology replaced them with the Church until the "end-times"? It's not "us" who have replaced Israel with the Church. Either Israel is present as the body of Christ, or they have been replaced until later. I believe we are grafted onto true Israel. You would then say that true Israel is going back to their land since 1948. This does not square with Jesus', John or Paul's definition of what a Jew is.

You have never answered the delima you face with the fact that Paul in Ephesians 2-3 clearly states that the Gentiles are heirs with Israel, members of one body and partakers of the commonwealth of Israel. This is exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 11, Gentiles were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

Who is the olive tree? Who or what have the Gentiles become a partaker of?

What does Paul mean when he says: For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—(Philippians 3:3)

You should really read Steve's post. It is most informative and answers the issue more completely than I have.

[Guest]

Well the charge of whose answering questions correctly and whose not is a spurious accusation which is nothing more than a smoke screen quite honestly. Sean is the one who just repeates the same old stuff over and over. Steve in your last post you mentioned how Israel has different meanings and although that is true...Paul is quite clear in the context of Romans 11 who he is talking about. To go on and on over the many different meanings Israel can mean is great,awesome job,but in light of the context of Romans 11 it isnt relevent because Paul opens chapter 11 with a very clear definition of who he referring to.

"I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

Even quoteing an old testament Scripture regarding Israel

"What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
   "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
      eyes so that they could not see
      and ears so that they could not hear,
   to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
   "May their table become a snare and a trap,
      a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
 10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
      and their backs be bent forever."[e]

And finally niether of you have spoken of this verse...one which I wish you could elaborate more on,not only for me but for others who read these answers. What do you thinks the times of the gentiles are? Why does it say there is a partial hardening until the fullness of the gentiles comes in? What is going to happen when the fullness does come in? You both illuded to it in a few places but never really explained what it means to you.

"25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   "The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
 27And this is[f] my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins."[g]

The term replacement theology is a term that has been aptly applied to your view and really isnt a derrogative term,its just a word that aptly explains what preterists believe about Israel and the Church and are ready to do away with all Gods promises to them,or apply them to the Church. But without giving you another springboard to jump off into another direction..I would like you do simply answer the questions I asked regarding verse 25...if you wouldnt mind...feel free to really expand on it for me..


Crusader

[_Steve]

When the full number of Gentiles have come in (along with the full number of believing Jews, who are coming in at the same time), "the mystery of God shall be complete" and Jesus will return.