"Until the TIMES of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.&qu

[Jill]

Well its the gentiles coming into the Kingdom of God,the whole context of Romans 11 salvation as it relates to Israel and Gentiles....Paul was sent as an Apostle to the Gentiles....and Pauls message wasnt, believe on Israel and thou shalt be saved it was believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Romans 11 is a roadblock to replacement theology and is very explicit if read in context with an open mind and heart..so much so that Paul ends Romans 11 with these solemn words we all would do to take to heart and to meditate upon....when preterists scold dispensationalisits for thier views, they would be wise to examine thier own selective dispensationalsim which tries to subvert Gods eternal dealings with His people Israel, which has no bases in Scripture.


" 33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
      How unsearchable his judgments,
      and his paths beyond tracing out!
 34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
      Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
 35"Who has ever given to God,
      that God should repay him?"[k]
 36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
      To him be the glory forever! Amen.


Jeremiah 31 35-36 is pretty clear also....and last time I checked the sun moon and stars where still there..

"This is what the LORD says,
       he who appoints the sun
       to shine by day,
       who decrees the moon and stars
       to shine by night,
       who stirs up the sea
       so that its waves roar—
       the LORD Almighty is his name:

 36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
       declares the LORD,
       "will the descendants of Israel ever cease
       to be a nation before me."

Until He comes
Crusader

[Guest]

36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."

And the descendants are...(?) and the nation is...(?)

Crusader, if you don't get it by now it may be that you are destined not to get it. I suppose its a good thing that this is not a salvation issue.

[Guest]

Hi Crusader,

Every time you suggest that someone should read Romans 11 (and that's been at least 7 times; my favorite was when you advised Allyn to just cut it right out of his Bible), I've done what you suggested and re-read the whole chapter. I've tried to read it with what you call "...in context with an open mind and heart...", but every time it seems to bolster the non-dispensationalist point of view more than yours. But... it really seems to be a favorite of yours so I don't think you'll see it any other way, at least not until the Second Coming when we'll all know for sure.

Michelle

[Jill]

Well Michelle thanks....I appreciate your honest reply...if you can read Romans 11 and not see Israel with a future restoration then I sure cant make you see it...thank you for responding to my posts in a nice way ,you and Allyn are kind hearted..

Crusader...

Maybe this post has reached its expiration date..

[Guest]

Could someone (anyone) please explain to me how your Christian walk, the way you live as a follower of Jesus, would differ if you were wrong regarding this issue and the other person was right?

[Jill]

Could someone (anyone) please explain to me how your Christian walk, the way you live as a follower of Jesus, would differ if you were wrong regarding this issue and the other person was right?

Well Homer my immediate thought is...nothing,because the two greatest commandments that Christians need to be subject to are to love the Lord with all your ,heart,soul strength and mind. The other is to love your neighbor as yourself. If your eschatology is wrong it really wont or shouldn't effect how those two kingdom principles get worked out in the life of the believer. Being set apart and being like Christ and doing his will within the framework of these two Kingdom laws is really the prime directive of the risen Savior. In fact those are the two most supreme laws that constantly get broken everyday my unbelievers and often by believers since we are growing in the Lord from day to day.

Yet with all that said, how we explain these last days and how we live in these last days is important. It isn't worth the cost of division though, so mature people should be able to discuss the issues and facets of the issues in a friendly way. Ideas and thoughts sharpen each other like steel sharpens steel. Ive changed many of my views through these years because Ive searched things out after weighing what others have shared with me,I know that sounds odd coming from one as opinionated as myself,but its true. Im sure that the preterists find my feelings, about my belief that the judgments of Revelation havent happened yet, as foreign to them as I find theirs when they say that it all happened in 70 A.D.


I dont know about you but I dont define my existence or value based on how many debates I win or loose. Im not so thin skinned that I take it personally either. I like most others here hopefully have another life we are engaged in..ministry..working..raising kids and the like. We are called to be Bereans and study though and since Ive first heard about preterism Ive spent some serious time reading thier own views on the net...not what others say but what they say. I hope that these conversations are done in the right spirit.....so in answer to your question...what we really are discussing here is a non essential issue as regards to the major tenants of the faith.
Crusader

[Guest]

Homer's Quote:

Could someone (anyone) please explain to me how your Christian walk, the way you live as a follower of Jesus, would differ if you were wrong regarding this issue and the other person was right?

You would think that it would or should make no difference, but it does in some circles. Some people put so much on their own understanding that they will go so far as to disassociate themselves from people who think differently. In fact they will go so far as to say if you don't hold to their "Spirit led" view then you are a hinderence to their own ministry and yes even to the Gospel.

Now I know that this is not right thinking and so I try to stay away from such judgements on others, but I have been judged by those kind of people personally so I am saying this from experience.

I have friends, for example, and I think they are still my friends, who are so staunch on believing that all Jews today will be saved that they fear any other doctrine coming in which might preach what I know is truth. They are like Crusader in their understanding and anything else to them is false and provacitive. ICZC, the International Christian Zionist Center, and Bridges for Peace, refrain from teaching about Jesus so as to not offend the Jew. They are just kind and gentle towards them and that is all they feel they need to do because in time "all Israel will be saved".

So this should help you to see that what we believe, even if not essential to our own salvation, can have a big effect on the Gospel of Christ going to all the world.

[Jill]

Allyn I do reject these tenants and think they must be exposed...Crusader


Heres preterism in a nutshell..


"1. Nero was the Antichrist. There will be no future individual Antichrist.

2. The Tribulation Period is already over. It occurred when the Roman army besieged Jerusalem in AD 66-70.

3. Christ “returned” in the clouds in AD 70 to witness the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army.

4. God replaced Old Testament Israel with the Church. Therefore, all the biblical promises to Israel belong to the Church. God is finished with national Israel. Whatever is happening in Israel today has nothing to do with prophecy.

5. Armageddon already happened in AD 70. The fall of “Babylon” refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.

6. Satan is already bound in the abyss and cannot hinder the spread of the Gospel. Revelation 20 has already been fulfilled.

7. We are already in the Millennium, but it is not literal. Some preterists equate the entire Church Age as the Millennium. The 1,000 years are not literal but figurative, even though they are mentioned six times in Revelation 19-20.

It may just be the next battleline within the Church and after the sucess of the the Left Behind series I think everyone be studying eschatology.

[Guest]

Just a thought, could it be possible that since we have first the bowls and later the trumpets and later the plagues , is it possible they refer to Jerusalem at different points in time. First in 70AD then maybe around the crusades and finally at the present time. The last plague does sound like Jesus's second coming and Satan being loosed for a short time could be an atomic missle attack against Jerusalem. After all, why do these bowls,trumpets and plagues have to be repeated if they are referring to the same event?

[Guest]

"Could someone (anyone) please explain to me how your Christian walk, the way you live as a follower of Jesus, would differ if you were wrong regarding this issue and the other person was right?"

1. I would be allowed to "officially" minister in a certain church movement, which at the moment, does not allow anyone who disagrees with their founder to do so.

2. I would see God's purposes in the earth differently. Citizens of Israel after the flesh are superior to others in the God's kingdom. They are saved primarily because of ethnicity and chance. This skews my view of God's character, as He becomes somewhat of a racist.

3. Because of point number two, the story arc of the Bible changes completely. Beginning from Genesis 12, through Revelation, God is obsessed with a plot of land. I need to be also. I will pray for national Israel to be victorious in all her dealings, and perhaps will send money to her.

4. The world is supposed to get worse.
a. If I work for peace in the Middle East, am I on the Antichrist's side? Don't chuckle, I was asked this once.
b. I "look up" when bad things happen to people. The cause for their pain via natural disasters is just another sign that I'm getting closer to seeing Jesus rapture me.
c. I see every geopolitical movement as an advancement of the Antichrist's agenda.
d. I use number four to evangelize, and my witness is corrupted every time I'm wrong. Oh, for the days of warning my friends about Clinton, black helicopters, and the one world government.
e. Because I believe I will be raptured, I do not prepare myself for the path that many Christians have walked - suffering for my faith.
f. I don't consider a harsh reality - the experience of my own death.

5. Instead of hastening the coming of the Lord, through prayer, Christian unity, and evangelizing, I figure He's coming soon because of a prophecy update.
a. People who disagree with me will be looked at askance, because they may be a part of the falling away in the last days.

6. I have no idea there is a church in Palestine, and that they are loved as much by God as anyone else who loves Jesus.

7. I put off plans for my life, because the Lord will be coming this afternoon. Christians who were alive during the late 60's and 70's were particularly susceptible to this.

You can attribute these attitudes to something other than dispensationalism, and I won't argue. But dispensationalism is either the direct cause, or a mighty enabler of these concepts. I experienced them all.

Regards,
JD