"Until the TIMES of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.&qu

[Guest]

I just plead with you Steve not to delete this thread. It is a wealth of concise information and truth. Crusader sort of reminds me of a man constantly being thrown a floating device but to only throw it back because he refuse to believe it will support him.

Steve, I agree with Allyn. This has been one of the most interesting threads on the forum, not because of any acrimony, but because of the information. Please let it stay.

Michelle

[Guest]

Steve, I agree with Allyn and Michelle because it's not about Crusader or Sean or anyone it's about having a great opportunity to share and learn from everyone's ability to present scriptural evidence to support their position. And if Crusader repeats himself then no one is compelled to repeat their answer to him.

[Guest]

Just wanted to stand in agreement with Allyn, Michelle and Steve7150.
Although I think Steve only said he would delete any further posts that do not interact with the points, not the entire thread. At least I hope that's what you meant Steve.
This has been an interesting thread, and has bolstered my stance on why I don't believe in a dispensational view anymore.

[_Steve]

I was not planning to delete the entire thread. I just can't understand why anyone who has something he wants to communicate will not make the slightest effort to interact with those who want to communicate with him. I will let the thread go on as long as there is interaction.

My problem is that I have responsibility here to keep an eye on what is being posted—partly because I am the moderator, and partly because many of the posts are addressed to me and asking me for a response. I normally enjoy fulfilling this responsibility, until some participant decides to just run everyone in circles endlessly without being willing to learn anything or to present a case for anything. All he appears to wish to do is take up space, insult the intelligence of his correspondents, and repeat his same statements endlessly. They show astonishing patience with him, but it is patience thrown into a black hole. I feel some responsibility before God not to let the forum devolve into something that would bring reproach upon Christ. What would a visiting unbeliever of average intelligence judge of the intelligence of Christians (and Christianity) if he/she were to read the way some Christians defend their views here? That's always a consideration with me when evaluating these discussions.

My impression from what Crusader has told us is that he feels he is on a mission to insert his views here just to keep them on the table. If that is his goal, he can simply cut-and-paste his old posts and just keep adding them to the end of the thread, so that the discussion never ends.

I am more than happy to have dispensationalists debate here—but that is not what he is doing. It would be refreshing to interact with a few articulate dispensationalists who know something about biblical exegesis and have a sense of how to assess and present evidence in an argument. Those dispensationalists have not shown up, so we get to return to our computers every day only to find that some more of our precious time (mine anyway) is required to read another of Crusader's endless repetitions of his favorite mantras (I paraphrase):

"Better read Romans 11 again!"

"Your views are dangerous. I don't exactly know or care what your views are, they are just plain dangerous! Tommy Ice told me so and I threw away R.C. Sproul because he didn't agree that these views are dangerous!"

"Even though my theology teaches that God has abandoned Israel, you guys are heretics because you believe God has abandoned Israel!"

"You're crazy because you think Jesus came back and the resurrection occurred in AD 70! I went to a website and found out that some preterists believe this. Therefore you believe this, regardless how many times you deny it!"

"Here, let me paste in another long passage from my computer's Bible-search program. I'm sure you have never read this passage before. It supports my view completely, though I don't have to explain why it does. I just say it does. Deal with it!"

"Even though the scriptures say that all these things were fulfilled in Christ, the prophecies about Israel have an additional future fulfillment, because I say so!"

"I'm simply right on everything I believe, and I don't have to prove it. You guys need to read the Bible more; then you'll understand as well as I do!"

"I don't need to study your position in order to assess it...it's just wrong because my gurus told me so."

Does anyone here consider such tactics to be dialogue?

Since Crusader doesn't apparently feel the need to read or think about what others write back to him (judging by his responses, which exhibit no evidence that he has any idea what others have said to him), it seems rather rude for him to take up the time of those who are considerate enough to actually read his posts and to thoughfully answer him.

I am not a person with lots of free time. I do not surf the internet, nor can I imagine ever being in a chat room or any conversation with strangers that merely takes up time. I am not lonely. I have never been at other message boards (except for one, which I visited briefly when someone informed me they were talking about me). I really don't know what people who have lots of time to hang out at the keyboard do at other forums.

When John created this forum, and approached me about moderating it, I was so internet illiterate that it was hard for him to explain to me even what these message boards are. He explained it as a way of extending the same kind of dialogue as we have on the radio program. The way I understood it was that people would post questions about the Bible, and I would answer them. This sounded like something worthy of some of my time, so I agreed.

I assumed that others would also challenge, add to, and refine the answers that I would give, so that there might be three or six or ten follow-ups to an answer, until all concerned parties would have had a chance to get their opinions expressed and argued. I never envisioned being chained to an endless thread where one heckler simply wants to object endlessly without putting something fresh on the table for consideration. Is this what message boards are? If so, I don't have time for them. I am going to die someday, and will give account for the usage of my time. I'd like to do something useful with as much of it as possible.

Someone said that they don't think Crusader is of the enemy. I don't think he is deliberately serving the enemy (any more than Peter was deliberately doing so at Caesarea Philippi), but insofar as wasting the time of God's servants is an agenda of Satan, I think there is reason to suspect an inadvertent instrumentality here. It reminds me of a small child just wanting to pester a busy parent, saying,"Guess what! Guess what!" and the parent saying, "What?" and the kid saying, "Nothing!" and then repeating the cycle ten times.

Others apparently have more time for this than I do, and have the patience to keep hearing Crusader say, "Nothing!" I will let him stay as long as people have time of their own to humor him. It costs me nothing for this thread to go on and on—so long as I don't have to visit it. If anyone has any questions to address to me, I will be available at the other threads. Please forward all my calls.

If Crusader ever has an interest in actual dialogue, I will gladly communicate with him. The Bible's pearls are not to be cast indescriminately.

[Guest]

I agree wholeheartedly Steve.

I have not answered Crusaders' last post to me because he's already helped me make my point with his ridiculous answer and proven that his statements are devoid of meaning. I have no desire to continue a dialogue with him because it's not a dialogue at all and I don't care to waste my time either.

I do think the thread has valuable information by those (especially Sean) who took the time to actually post something meaningful.

[Guest]

Steve you should know that I respect you very much but you have to realize that this thread is not about Crusader nor do any of us, I assume, think that it is. Also, most of us are not on the same level of understanding that you are and so, I suppose, we have more tolerance for foolishness.

You know what I get most out of this thread is the many ways the same thing has been said. To me it a very satisfying thing to finally get it.
You said, Steve:

Is this what message boards are? If so, I don't have time for them. I am going to die someday, and will give account for the usage of my time. I'd like to do something useful with as much of it as possible.

Yes, I am afraid this is what message boards are like. With every one member there is that same number of various personalities. I have 3 message boards and I have seen it all. You just learn to keep things under control and don't allow the little monsters who come in to spoil your day. I believe its called patience and it tends to go along way.

There is no reason you can't continue to address questions directed to you but it is a waste of time to try to keep the boards squeaky clean. It just won't happen. People come and go and tomorrow another Crusader will come in and it starts all again. The point is to not to fix something that isn't broken.

Be well in the Lord, Steve and allow the muturity of your members work.

[Guest]

Well I really think the bottom line is that its the content that bothers Steve so much...I dont think its about me,and I dont think its about my debateing style. I think common courtesy and grace should be given to all. To bring up those other issues is just a smoke screen. Sean and I had a fairly decent exchange and Steve even said he has no time to really participate here. He may recall and have feelings over our last discussion on Arminianism and sovierngty of God. When we talk about somebody sounding like a child, its these long posts by Steve which really are nothing more than slam Crusader statements and unless he deletes this ( which apparently Im under constant threat of now) you can also read. If you want to see the real uneven positon of this whole forum just go to the main eschatology site and instead of stopping here scroll on down to dispensational humor....its clear that the intention of many here is only to deride,mock and poke fun at people holding my view,and that my dear freinds speaks volumes to the spirit of fairness which is in operation here.If you want to have people of differnent views post here than why not delete that Steve...for it truly has is offensive and sets the stage for name calling and general unfairness. But folks even now as I wrtie this I am in fear miles away from another site it will just get deleted...you tell me how fair that is...


Crusader


P.S

On top of that I just got back from the vet and had my Airedale put to sleep aftert 12 years of faithful love....I wonder if I should ever even come back to post here ...I really do....

[_Steve]

Maybe not. Sorry about the dog. We have an old dog ready to be put to sleep too. It's sad, but I am not sure how it impacts Christian behavior. I had a wife killed in an accident, but that didn't prevent me from acting like a Christian. I don't remember the specifics of our discussion about Calvinism and Arminianism, but I vaguely recall you acting the same way there. As for the dispensational humor, some may find it offensive, but only people who lack the ability to laugh at themselves. Feel free to post some good "preterist humor" on the forum. No one should be offended, as long as it is funny.

I want to clarify, lest there be any misunderstanding, that it is not Crusader's disagreement with me that I object to. It is the lack of integrity and substance in his presentation. I will debate on friendly terms with those who disagree with me for hours without feeling I am wasting my time, so long as the other party is actually in the discussion and is interacting.

For example, my friend Ken ("Priestly1" at this forum) disagrees as strongly with preterism as does Crusader. Ken and I have debated for several years about this and other issues. I have had him as a guest to debate me on my radio program, and he and I have debated at this forum and before a classroom audience. Ken is intelligent (more intelligent than I by a considerable margin) and has done his homework. He has read as much of the writers that he disagrees with as he has of those in his camp. His arguments are relevant, well-informed and challenging—everything that Crusader's arguments are not. I actually think readers will learn something by reading the interaction between people like Ken and those with whom he disagrees —if he would just learn to use paragraph breaks, and stop using the unfamiliar Aramaic forms of biblical characters' names :-).

There are others like him. Good advocates for their viewpoints. They say things that challenge and stimulate thinking on biblical subjects. I welcome that kind of disagreement with open arms. It is not required that one be an intellectual before they present an argument or a challenge to someone here. It is important, though, when someone does not have much command of his subject, that he present his points with a modicum of humility, acknowledging that he doesn't know it all. This is where Crusader has let us all down.

Regardless what the standards may be at other message boards, I would like to keep the participants here honest or else invite them to haunt other boards instead. If people like Crusader are common in other forums, they are certainly unusual here. One or two people have accused us of being elitist, and requiring only intellectuals to participate. This is an unfair allegation, of course, because many honest people post here who are obviously not intellectuals, whom we welcome without censure.

I am only holding out for two characteristics among our participants: honesty and humility. Where the first is, we even tolerate some deficiencies in the latter. Other message boards may not place such requirements upon those who post there. It is not necessary for us to follow their lead. There might be people out there who appreciate the existence of a forum that insists on maintaining Christian integrity among its participants.

[Guest]

Well Im staying and I enjoy responding to you guys...and irregardless of what you think Allyn is right this isnt about me its about the subject...If everything were as you say then it wouldnt even matter because it would be so rediculous as to not warrant your supervision and or threats, that in and of itself does make me wonder. If I am being singled out by you for some reason then so be it. As to the humor on dispensationlism its unprofessional,unethical and even though you disagree its a baromoter of the tone that is set here.I find that for a person such as you seem to be who wants to promote integrity and honesty it stands an example to the opposite. I wouldnt post that about preterists because its just childish. So I am glad we understand eachother and as far as to your postition here as adminstator thats fine,if you want to banish me thats fine too. But it wont be an action that I freely do like last time...I am not saying that I will post here all the time for I may even go weeks in between but its something I enjoy. I would like to say that of all the people Ive met here so far Allyn has shown more fairness than the rest. He doesnt make the kind of comments and digs that others have. It seems people are trying to get me to get mad or say something rash...and Im not going to. Your right about one thing I am not a preterist but to say that what Im doing here is somehow being aided by the kingdom of darkness is in excusable and worthy of a full apology...of course I wont get one.


Steves own words.

"Someone said that they don't think Crusader is of the enemy. I don't think he is deliberately serving the enemy (any more than Peter was deliberately doing so at Caesarea Philippi), but insofar as wasting the time of God's servants is an agenda of Satan, I think there is reason to suspect an inadvertent instrumentality here. It reminds me of a small child just wanting to pester a busy parent, saying,"Guess what!" and the parent saying, "What?" and the kid saying, "Nothing!" and then repeating the cycle ten times.

What I see here is a redundant form of rhetoric and personal attack which could only have two agendas..1) get me to say something in the flesh 2) or make the issue not the facts but the person. So Allyn right on....of all the people Ive met here you are up to this moment exhibiiting the most fairness...I am taking a few days off this site to just get some much needed r&r....and let others post some stuff on whats transpired between Steve and I ....Todays been a difficult day for me and I again find steves remarks about my dog and his wife a slam...like somehow Im not acting like a Christian cause of my dog when I have acted like a Chrisitan all along....I get this feeling hes about ready to delete me....or this, even for sharing these thoughts....It reminds me of the shperherding movement I wnet through and the total abuse of spiritual authority. Shepherds lead the sheep not beat them.

Crusader

[_Steve]

Shepherding movement. Yep. That'd be me, all right. You finally saw through my disguise.

Crusader, I don't make any attempts to get you or anyone else to speak in the flesh. You don't need any encouragement along these lines. I am only desiring to persuade you to speak in integrity.

Also, I am not trying to turn the attention from the facts to the person, I am trying to get the person to deal with the facts.

I don't see any reason to apologize for the dispensational humor someone else posted and in which I find no occasion of offense, nor for my observations about the devil's agendas. I am sorry, however, that you are having a hard day. I am sure you have our prayers.