If there is to be no millineum.......

Post by **_Christopher** » Wed May 24, 2006 8:46 am

Hey Mort,

That's a very impressive synopsis and I agree with your conclusions. I'm saving that for my files.

Reading through Romans gives me the picture of a father sitting down with his two quarreling sons and making them kiss and make up.

Post by **_AARONDISNEY** » Wed May 24, 2006 11:38 am

Christopher wrote:Hey Mort,

That's a very impressive synopsis and I agree with your conclusions. I'm saving that for my files.

Reading through Romans gives me the picture of a father sitting down with his two quarreling sons and making them kiss and make up.

Couldn't agree more. That was impressive (for the most part). However the two sons that "kiss and make up" don't morph into one son

Aaron

Post by **_Steve** » Wed May 24, 2006 12:58 pm

Actually, according to Ephesians 2:15, they do.

Post by **_Christopher** » Wed May 24, 2006 1:17 pm

However the two sons that "kiss and make up" don't morph into one son

Well, you would have to say that the two sons are in the same family, right? In the same way, Jews and Gentiles in Christ are in the same family (or body, or group, or holy nation, whichever you prefer). All who are in Christ are God's chosen people (His family) are they not?

Post by **_AARONDISNEY** » Wed May 24, 2006 3:20 pm

Christopher wrote:
However the two sons that "kiss and make up" don't morph into one son
Well, you would have to say that the two sons are in the same family, right? In the same way, Jews and Gentiles in Christ are in the same family (or body, or group, or holy nation, whichever you prefer). All who are in Christ are God's chosen people (His family) are they not?

Sure I agree with that. I was just getting a light jab in there

.

It is true that (from what I gather) in this church age, Jew and Gentile come to the Lord as one body. We are free to approach God and we are no different in His eyes.

But it seems from scripture that I read without unnecessarily spiritualizing it, that there will come a time when the Church will not be here on this earth and the Lord will deal with the nation of Israel once again, and that this time they will receive Him.

Zechariah 14
9 - And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 - All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and [from] the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 - And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

If today Jesus is king over all the earth, there is no more destruction, and Jerusalem is safely inhabited, it is not something I notice. I know this can probably be spiritualized. It's cool that you wish to spiritualize this but I prefer not to.

Post by **_Steve** » Wed May 24, 2006 6:09 pm

Jesus is certainly King over all the earth. This is why the kingdom has come to include people of all nations. He is even King over those who do not yet recognize it to be so. All authority in heaven and earth has been given to Him (Matt.28:18). There remains none to give Him in the future.

Jerusalem is also secure and safe. "The gates of hades will not prevail against it" (Matt.16:18). We may not prefer to spiritualize Jerusalem and the prophecies about it. This is our choice. But we should make that choice in full awareness that equating Jerusalem and Zion with the church was the apostolic position (Heb.12:22-23/ Gal.4:26/ 1 Pet.2:6).

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Wed May 24, 2006 9:39 pm

But it seems from scripture that I read without unnecessarily spiritualizing it, that there will come a time when the Church will not be here on this earth and the Lord will deal with the nation of Israel once again, and that this time they will receive Him.

Does ignoring a scripture’s historical fulfillment and projecting it thousands of years into the future count as spiritualizing? Ok, it’s your turn. Show us these scriptures.

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu May 25, 2006 11:19 am

Jesus is certainly King over all the earth. This is why the kingdom has come to include people of all nations. He is even King over those who do not yet recognize it to be so. All authority in heaven and earth has been given to Him [Matt.28:18]. There remains none to give Him in the future.

There may be no more authority to give Him. Nevertheless it is clear that over 99.9% of the world is not under his authority at this time, nor has it been so for the last 2000 years. It is clear from the word of Christ that this will not be the case in the future. Matthew 13:36-43

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the darnel of the field."
He answered, "He who sows the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the darnel are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

The heavenly kingdom exists right here an now on earth, with the heavenly king ruling. In my opinion, that same kingdom will exist on earth when Jesus sends his angels to gather out of His kingdom all the sons of the devil. The righteous "shining like the sun in the kingdom of their Father", in my opinion, will not be immediately transported to heaven, but will "shine in the kingdom" right here on earth for a (dare I say it?) thousand years.

Jerusalem is also secure and safe. "The gates of hades will not prevail against it" [Matt.16:18]. We may not prefer to spiritualize Jerusalem and the prophecies about it. This is our choice. But we should make that choice in full awareness that equating Jerusalem and Zion with the church was the apostolic position (Heb.12:22-23/ Gal.4:26/ 1 Pet.2:6).

Yes, Paul in Galatians 4:24-26 "sprititualized" Jerusalem, if by that, we mean that he gave an allegory in which Israel and Ishmael represent the two covenants, the covenant of the law, and the new covenant of enabling grace. Paul wrote:

Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

So notice, that Paul not only connected the law and the "present" earthly Jerusalem with Ishmael, who was the fleshly son, but connects with Israel, the son of promise, "the Jerusalem which is above", the heavenly Jerusalem which is the church, the bride of Christ (stated to be the bride in Revelation). Paul said that she is our mother.

Thus Paul distinguished between the "earthly Jerusalem" and the "heavenly Jerusalem". He likewise distinguished between the earthly Jews ("his kinsmen after the flesh") from those who are "real Jews", who are part of the Olive Tree of God, including both those who are descended from Israel, and those who are not.

Post by **_Allyn** » Thu May 25, 2006 12:16 pm

What is this authority that only some are under? God is God over all and all authority and power has been given to His Son. That sounds like 100% to me.

Post by **_Sean** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:05 pm

Paidion wrote:
There may be no more authority to give Him. Nevertheless it is clear that over 99.9% of the world is not under his authority at this time, nor has it been so for the last 2000 years.

If my child disobeys me, does that mean they are not under my authority? If I drive over the speed limit and don't get caught, does that mean the government has no authority?

Also, I believe there is much Christ is doing from heaven to affect what's going on on the earth. Just as God did in the OT. In the natural, it didn't look like God even existed, but the OT scriptures explain that God is behind what goes on.

I seems like there are references made to Jesus reigning now over the earth:

Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.
Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
Act 2:35 until I make your enemies your footstool.'

Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

It seems like a process. All authority is now, subjection is growing and ongoing.