If there is to be no millineum.......

[Guest]

Why don't you believe He did so?

From my understanding (which admittedly is limited) He brought them back from Babylonian exile. Not exile to all those other places.

[Guest]

Aaro, I'm not sure I am following you. The text says:

11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.

Maybe you can explain better the "to" that you are talking about.

Also, for you study enjoyment you will see that vs 15 and 16 , especially 16 -
As it was for Israel
In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt.

Indicating for sure that this return from the exile resembled that of the exodus.

[Guest]

How does vs 16 make it for sure that it is describing the return from the Babylonian exile?

Isa 11:16
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
(KJV)

It's just saying that this return will be similar to the exile from Egypt. Again, when the Lord brought the people back from Babylon, did he also bring them back from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea?

[Guest]

No I said it resembled the exodus because the verse says "as in that day" "Or liken unto that day".

Aaron, you are going to have to take some ownership in understanding these verses. Sorry to be so blunt but it is pretty straight forward in this case.

[Guest]

No I said it resembled the exodus because the verse says "as in that day" "Or liken unto that day".

Aaron, you are going to have to take some ownership in understanding these verses. Sorry to be so blunt but it is pretty straight forward in this case.

Allyn, you are totally avoiding the issue. The verse says that the Lord will regather them a second time from various places. This can only be a future regathering since He did not regather them from all these places in the return from Babylon, which is the only other return from Exile that I know of.

Can anyone answer this that actually understands what I'm asking?

Thanks for trying, Allyn

[Guest]

Allyn, thanks for your thoughts. However, as I see it, the context of the passage shows that this 'second' re-gathering could not have been the Babylonian one.

For example, how do you relate the immediately preceding verse:

10 “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time [etc.]

Does this not connect the regathering with the Root (Jesus)? As israel were not regathered at Jesus' first coming (they were already in the land), this seems to place the regathering at His second coming. Also, immediately afterwards, we read:

13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;
Together they shall plunder the people of the East;
They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab;
And the people of Ammon shall obey them.
15 The LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt;
With His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River,
And strike it in the seven streams,
And make men cross over dryshod.

How would these things have been fulfilled during the Babylonian return?

Any thoughts?
Ely

[Guest]

Thanks Ely,
I don't think that Allyn and I were connecting very well there. I was asking one question while he was answering something totally different (I guess ).....

This portion of scripture is a slam dunk to me, that the regathering of national Israel is prophesied in Scripture!!

[Guest]

Isaiah tends to have dual features in fulfillments. He speaks of his present age and of far future events. I believe that when he speaks of Israel in the far future tense he is speaking of the true Israel as Paul has taught us who they are.

I believe I did answer Aarons question but the deeper truth is that Isaiah was prophecing about the remnant who are in fact the faithful. This includes all believers.

I offer to you John 11:49-52

49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

[Guest]

I am not sure why anyone could say with certainty that the Jews were not gathered from all those places after the Babylonian exile. I believe that some Jews from every part of the diaspora eventually did return to the land of Israel.

However, the prophecy focuses on a second "exodus" (as Allyn pointede out) in v.16. This the first gathering was from Egypt, in the days of Moses. The second gathering is the "exodus" that Jesus accomplished in Jerusalem (Luke 9:31 in the Greek).

Ely is correct in saying that this gathering is related to Jesus' coming (as Allyn also agrees). However, the dispensational view wants to apply this to the second coming. It is more sensible to see it as the first coming of Christ. That's when He accomplished the exodus in Jerusalem.

The prophecy begins with a shoot springing from Jesse's roots. Jesus "sprang" from these roots when He was born. He won't spring from them when He returns.

Paul apparently applied this prophecy to the present age (since the first coming of Christ). He quoted Isaiah 11:10 as a reference to the present influx of the Gentiles into the church (Rom.15:12).

I actually answered about this passage at greater length a long time ago, at this thread: http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=300

[Guest]

I don't believe that I was just cherry picking. I believe (as far as I can tell) that in this age there is no difference. God isn't dealing with national Israel apart from us. The middle wall has been brought down, but I don't believe that we are the Israel of God, or that we are the Jews spoken of in Revelation 3:9. I believe that what He was speaking of was His Jewish remnant that followed Him as He intended.

Romans main theme that I can see is from chapters 1-3 we are all the same, Jew or Gentile, in need of a Savior and sinful beings, no matter who we are. Jews can't look down on Gentiles and say that they are sinners above all sinners because as 2:1 says - the man that judges does the same thing.

Ch. 4 spoke about how Abraham was not in God's grace because of what he did, but because of the faith he had in God. How that prior to his circumcision he was counted righteous because of his faith.

Ch. 5 - Speaks once again of our need for a Savior, because in Adam, we were all infected (Jew or Gentile) with the sin nature.

Chs 6-8 - The believers relationship to sin. How it is to be no longer our master. The law came to show us how sinful we are - and how we needed Jesus to deliver us from the body of this death!!- Now in Jesus we can walk in victory over sin and no longer be condemned.

Chs 9-11 Paul wishes that his people (according to the flesh) would understand their need for Jesus, for not all that are of Israel are true Israel...The true Israel of God is the faithful remnant. So He has also included Gentiles into His gospel and sent the message throughout the world that salvation is of Jesus Christ. We as Gentiles are wild branches and the national Jew is the natural branch. We have been grafted in against nature.

Ch 12-16 (various instructions to Godly living)

Hi Aaron,

That's a pretty good synopsis of Romans. I appreciate the effort you put into it. I think the only place where we really differ is on the question of whether or not Gentile believers are part of Israel.

I've made this very simplified, but I don't see a dominant theme of all believers becoming Israel. Can you specifically show me how this is the major theme of Romans?

I'll take a crack at it by offering my own synopsis on Romans, as it relates to the topic at hand. To begin with, I think there's an historical event that set the tone for Paul's letter to the Romans: In about 51 A.D., Claudius banished the Jews from Rome (it appears that this may have been because of anti-Christian riots). When Claudius died (of poisoning) in about 54 A.D., Nero came to power and the Jews began returning. For the three years that the Jews had been banished, the Roman church was Gentile. It appears that some of the Gentile Christians were having difficulty accepting the returning Jewish Christians. It also appears that some Gentile Christians felt that God had rejected the Jews altogether (what I would call true “replacement theology”). On the other hand, it appears that some of the Jewish Christians were holding themselves separate from the Gentiles. Paul’s desire is that they accept the fact that they have become one people in Christ.

His argument is structured thusly:

1. Do not pass judgment on one another (2:1-11)

2. Physically being a Jew does not necessarily make one a Jew (2:28-29)

3. Jews and Gentiles alike are under sin. No one will be declared righteous by observing the law. (3:9, 20)

4. Righteousness comes by faith (3:21-24)

5. God is the God of the Jews and the Gentiles (3:29-30)

6. Exhibit A: Abraham

a. Was justified by faith (4:1-9)
b. This occurred before he was circumcised (4:10-11)
c. Abraham is the father of all who believe – both circumcised and uncircumcised (4:12)
d. The promise God made to Abraham came by faith and is therefore guaranteed for all Abraham’s offspring, both Jew and Gentile (4:13-17)

7. Sin is universal but was conquered through the death and resurrection of Jesus (5, 6 & 7)

8. There is a new Law – that of the Spirit. We are to live by the Spirit and overcome (8)

9. Paul has great sorrow because of the unbelief of his own race (9:1-5)

10. But not all who are descended from Israel are, in fact, Israel (9:6)

11. Being a descendant of Abraham doesn’t make you a child of Abraham (9:7)

12. It is not the natural (sarx – by way of flesh) children who are God’s children, but rather the children of the promise (faith) who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring (9:8)

13. Exhibit B: Rebekah (9:10-13)
a. Had two sons. God chose that the older would serve the younger.

14. God has chosen some to be objects of wrath. He has also called some out of the Jews and Gentiles to be objects of mercy (9:16-24)

15. God will call those who weren’t His people, “My people” (9:25)

16. On the other hand, only a remnant of Israel will be saved (9:27-29)

17. The Gentiles have obtained righteousness (by faith) but the Jews (in large part) have not obtained it (9:30-33)

18. Paul’s deep desire is that the Jews would be saved, but they have not submitted to God. (10:1-4)

19. Paul refers to Deuteronomy 30 where Moses set before the Israelites the choice of life or death (10:5-8)

20. To choose Jesus is to choose life, but not all Jews have accepted Him (10:9-21)

21. Does this mean that God has rejected the Jews altogether? No, there is a faithful remnant, chosen by grace (11:1-6)

22. The Jews who have not accepted Jesus have been hardened (11:7-10)

23. Their fall has benefited the Gentiles. Paul hopes that this might cause some of them to become envious and turn to Jesus, and thus be saved (11:11-16)

24. Israel is likened to an Olive Tree that has had some branches broken off. Wild olive shoots (representing Gentiles) have been grafted onto the tree. The Gentiles should be respectful of the Jews (11:17-24)

25. A portion of Israel has become hardened and Gentiles are coming in. In this way “all Israel” will be saved (11:25-27) – Paul has already made it clear that by Israel he means those who are justified by faith.

26. The Jews (in large part) are disobedient, just as the Gentiles were, but they are not beyond God’s mercy (11:28-32).

27. Learn to live together as one body (Jew & Gentile), be good citizens, live in purity, don’t judge one-another, seek peace and mutual edification (12:1 – 15:4)

28. 15:5-6 is really the point of the entire epistle: Paul’s desire that a church made up of Jews and Gentiles can be unified.

29. Paul references some OT scriptures that speak of Gentiles and Jews worshipping God together. (15:7-12)

30. Paul speaks a bit about his ministry and about his desire to take the gospel to Spain. It appears that he is seeking support and maybe a base in Rome from which to launch a missionary journey into Spain (15:14-33).

31. Closing greetings to the various house-churches and individuals. Paul is doing something slightly sneaky here (IMHO) in that he’s telling those in each church in Rome who will hear this letter to greet those in the other churches in Rome. One can assume that some of these churches were Gentile-oriented while others were Jew-oriented.

In conclusion, what I see Paul stressing in his letter to the Romans is that the church (made up of Jews and Gentiles) is the people of God - the children of Abraham - Israel. The reason that is significant to him is because he wants them to live as one family in unity, not as two separate factions.

Paul's focus is very much on the situation at hand, not on events that will occur thousands of years in the future.