"Until the TIMES of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.&qu
Hi
Sean wrote
[I don't understand what you are saying. You agree that Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31 and you agree that Jesus established the covenant spoken of in the text of Hebrews (which is the same as Jer 31) but then you say Jeremiah is about a future covenant? Make up your mind. Is it about the covenant Jesus established or not? Your not making sense. ]
The event Jeremiah is referring to as a New Covenant is Jesus death,buriel and ressurection but he is saying it will be made will His people Israel in the future...Sean if you cant understand it...I dont know how to explain it any clearer! Do you know what a prophecy is? Maybe we should start there.....
Crusader
[I don't understand what you are saying. You agree that Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31 and you agree that Jesus established the covenant spoken of in the text of Hebrews (which is the same as Jer 31) but then you say Jeremiah is about a future covenant? Make up your mind. Is it about the covenant Jesus established or not? Your not making sense. ]
The event Jeremiah is referring to as a New Covenant is Jesus death,buriel and ressurection but he is saying it will be made will His people Israel in the future...Sean if you cant understand it...I dont know how to explain it any clearer! Do you know what a prophecy is? Maybe we should start there.....
Crusader
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Crusader, Why do you continue to believe that the true Israel includes the unbelieving portion? What tells you this?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Re: Hi
Yes.Crusader wrote: The event Jeremiah is referring to as a New Covenant is Jesus death,buriel and ressurection
Crusader
Where does it say that? It actually says:Crusader wrote: but he is saying it will be made will His people Israel in the future
Crusader
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
The new covenant, the one God was speaking of (Heb 8) the one quoted from Jer 31, has replaced the old, mozaic covenant. It is clearly speaking of the covenant Jesus made with Israel, the 12 disciples representing Israel.
The writer of Hebrews nowhere says there will be yet another covenant after the new one, nor does it say it will be with Israel in the future. The writer is quoting the prophecy, not giving it again. Again, the writer is quoting it to say it's being fulfilled at that time, not at a later time.
I understand why you think this way, it's because you don't want to acknowledge that the new covenant was made with Israel, the church. Hebrews even says this is the case:
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant
This clearly says Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, and Church are all one in the same.
Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians who were wanting to turn back to the old covenant types. The Hebrews writer never states that this is ok, as if in a later time God would come back for them, as if they didn't belong in the Church, as if the Church was not for Jews or Jewish in origin.
You mentioned prophecy. How about this one:
Isa 28:14 Therefore hear the Word of Jehovah, scornful men who rule this people in Jerusalem.
Isa 28:15 Because you have said, We have made a covenant with death, and we have made a vision with hell; when the overwhelming rod shall pass through, it shall not come to us; for we have made lies our refuge, and we have hidden ourselves under falsehood,
Isa 28:16 therefore so says the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I place in Zion a Stone for a foundation, a tried Stone, a precious Cornerstone, a sure Foundation; he who believes shall not hurry.
Who is God speaking to? How is this prophecy fulfilled?
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
Gentiles and Jews are part of the Church, Gentiles are called His people. Remember the context of Romans 9:
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
ONLY Children of the promise are offspring. And Galations 3 says if you belong to Christ then you Abraham's seed and are heirs according to the promise.
Now, back to the Isaiah quote I posted above, in the context of Romans 9, it goes on to say:
Rom 9:31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Rom 9:33 as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
This is how we understand OT prophecy, by comapring it to how the NT writers interpreted it.
First, it's not a literal stone, it's Jesus.
Second, Jesus is the foundation of the Church.
1Pe 2:4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious,
1Pe 2:5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
1Pe 2:7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"
1Pe 2:8 and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
1Pe 2:10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Peter, a Jew, agrees. Peter calls the Christians he is writing to the people of God, saying that they were once not a people!? But now, in Christ they are the people of God. And we are spiritual stones, being built up a spiritual house. The Church, the dwelling place of God.
Here's the point. These OT prophecies were given to Israel, and in the NT they were applied to the Church.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Allyn
"Crusader, Why do you continue to believe that the true Israel includes the unbelieving portion? What tells you this?"
Crusader
Paul has no problem what so ever in identifying Israel and saying that Israel has had a hardening in part for a season...I figure if Paul can call them Israel then its a proper term. Ezekiel and Jeremiah both spoke of this new covenant that God would make with them....when he will write His laws upon thier hearts. But the Church is still the Church....Paul actually talks of both in Romans 11. Was Paul confused as to the two seperate groups? I dont think so!!! We have been grafted in to the root...Paul says...nowhere does it say we have become the root. It seems clear Allyn. In the Book of Acts the term Israel is used 20 times and the term Church 19 and both are kept distinct.While there is no difference in how salvation comes to both,its clear that God is dealing with the two groups in different ways.
Who did this to Israel...well the answer is simple again Romans 11
"7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]
And whose eyes were blinded....Israel...Israel...and again Israel.... and who is going to remove it....please read on from Romans 11
"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Finally Paul closes with these awesome words....in its really basically says...you may not understand it....you may not like it...but its why God is God and were not.
"3Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Right now we are awaiting the end to the times of the gentiles...and then Israel ( yes they are called Israel even in thier unbelief) will be alowed to see that Jesus is the Messiah....the one they pierced and they will mourn for Him as an only child....but it hasnt happened yet. Thats why I call them Israel....
Crusader
"Crusader, Why do you continue to believe that the true Israel includes the unbelieving portion? What tells you this?"
Crusader
Paul has no problem what so ever in identifying Israel and saying that Israel has had a hardening in part for a season...I figure if Paul can call them Israel then its a proper term. Ezekiel and Jeremiah both spoke of this new covenant that God would make with them....when he will write His laws upon thier hearts. But the Church is still the Church....Paul actually talks of both in Romans 11. Was Paul confused as to the two seperate groups? I dont think so!!! We have been grafted in to the root...Paul says...nowhere does it say we have become the root. It seems clear Allyn. In the Book of Acts the term Israel is used 20 times and the term Church 19 and both are kept distinct.While there is no difference in how salvation comes to both,its clear that God is dealing with the two groups in different ways.
Who did this to Israel...well the answer is simple again Romans 11
"7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]
And whose eyes were blinded....Israel...Israel...and again Israel.... and who is going to remove it....please read on from Romans 11
"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Finally Paul closes with these awesome words....in its really basically says...you may not understand it....you may not like it...but its why God is God and were not.
"3Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Right now we are awaiting the end to the times of the gentiles...and then Israel ( yes they are called Israel even in thier unbelief) will be alowed to see that Jesus is the Messiah....the one they pierced and they will mourn for Him as an only child....but it hasnt happened yet. Thats why I call them Israel....
Crusader
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I understand why you think this way, it's because you don't want to acknowledge that the new covenant was made with Israel, the church. Hebrews even says this is the case:
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant
This clearly says Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, and Church are all one in the same.
Well Sean you finally said it....you believe Israel is the Church... How do read through Romans 11 where Paul makes such obvious distinctions between the two???? And please find me the Scripture where it says that Gods abondoned Israel and replaced Israel with the Church....???
Crusader
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant
This clearly says Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, and Church are all one in the same.
Well Sean you finally said it....you believe Israel is the Church... How do read through Romans 11 where Paul makes such obvious distinctions between the two???? And please find me the Scripture where it says that Gods abondoned Israel and replaced Israel with the Church....???
Crusader
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Crusader,
Every passage you cut and paste has been explained to you. Yet, you still hold to the "don't confuse the Church and Israel" mantra, as though the words themselves have some magical power to unlock the mysteries of eschatology.
Romans is not about eschatology. It is about sotierology - how people get saved. "And thus all Israel will be saved" in 11:26, simply means, "in this way" all Israel will be saved. In what way? Through faith in Christ.
Paul spent the first few chapters of his letter explaining that not all who of the physical seed of Abraham are Jews. But those of faith in Christ are true Jews, and the true seed of Abraham.
You are confusing Israel, with Israel.
All I can derive from your cut and pastes, is that you believe there are two people that God has. One is the church, made up of believing Jews and Gentiles. The other is unbelieving Jews. Why doesn't God have a third people - unbelieving Gentiles?
This is nonsense based on the Biblical principle of salvation by faith. You believe that when the Jews who survive the future holocaust predicted by Calvary Chapel, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye et al, see Jesus return, they will believe. Jesus said^ to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." John 20:29
Beyond the principles of sotierology (why do most Jews go to Hell in your system because God has blinded them, and only a fraction of them don't, simply because they happen to be alive when Jesus returns and thus don't have to exercise faith), where do you find the notion of God having two people? It simply isn't taught. The apostles, and Jesus went to great pains to demonstrate otherwise, as the previously quoted scriptures in this thread have shown.
Beyond that, where do you believe Jesus failed in fulfillling the Old Covenant? Understand, you must believe this in order to hold to your doctrine. Christ must have been deficient in His ministry at some point, because you believe there are Old Covenant promises and prophecies yet to be fulfilled.
Jesus said, "It is finished."
You disagree?
Regards,
JD
Every passage you cut and paste has been explained to you. Yet, you still hold to the "don't confuse the Church and Israel" mantra, as though the words themselves have some magical power to unlock the mysteries of eschatology.
Romans is not about eschatology. It is about sotierology - how people get saved. "And thus all Israel will be saved" in 11:26, simply means, "in this way" all Israel will be saved. In what way? Through faith in Christ.
Paul spent the first few chapters of his letter explaining that not all who of the physical seed of Abraham are Jews. But those of faith in Christ are true Jews, and the true seed of Abraham.
You are confusing Israel, with Israel.
All I can derive from your cut and pastes, is that you believe there are two people that God has. One is the church, made up of believing Jews and Gentiles. The other is unbelieving Jews. Why doesn't God have a third people - unbelieving Gentiles?
This is nonsense based on the Biblical principle of salvation by faith. You believe that when the Jews who survive the future holocaust predicted by Calvary Chapel, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye et al, see Jesus return, they will believe. Jesus said^ to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." John 20:29
Beyond the principles of sotierology (why do most Jews go to Hell in your system because God has blinded them, and only a fraction of them don't, simply because they happen to be alive when Jesus returns and thus don't have to exercise faith), where do you find the notion of God having two people? It simply isn't taught. The apostles, and Jesus went to great pains to demonstrate otherwise, as the previously quoted scriptures in this thread have shown.
Beyond that, where do you believe Jesus failed in fulfillling the Old Covenant? Understand, you must believe this in order to hold to your doctrine. Christ must have been deficient in His ministry at some point, because you believe there are Old Covenant promises and prophecies yet to be fulfilled.
Jesus said, "It is finished."
You disagree?
Regards,
JD
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I've been saying that all along. I already showed you passages like Hebrews 12, Revelation 21, Ephesians 2, 1 Peter 2, etc that say this.Crusader wrote:
Well Sean you finally said it....you believe Israel is the Church...
Crusader
I just read it in context. Paul, throughout Romans gives a distinction between true Jews circumcised in heart (Christians) and those who are not. This is what is stated in Romans 9, not all Israel is descended from Israel. Do you see what Paul is saying? Unbelieveing Jews are cast off, believing Jews are true Israel (Rom 11). All Israel being saved is all Jews and All Gentiles that believe are saved, as members of one body, the Church.Crusader wrote: How do read through Romans 11 where Paul makes such obvious distinctions between the two????
Crusader
Paul makes the distinction, putting Jews into two classes, one class are believers that also include Gentiles.
It's called The Parable of the Tenants:Crusader wrote: And please find me the Scripture where it says that Gods abondoned Israel and replaced Israel with the Church....???
Crusader
Matt 21:40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"
41 "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."
42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone:
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'?
43 "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Hi
Sean Wrote
Matt 21:40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"
41 "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."
42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone:
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'?
43 "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
It amazes me that in your zeal to get rid of Gods plan for Israel you mishandle this whole passage Sean. If you read from the beggining its about Jesus the King of the Jews triumphal entry into Jerusalem. Its also about the Jews rejecting thier true Messiah Jesus. When Jesus curses the fig tree ,which is often representative of Israel,its showing that since they didnt bring forth fruit God caused them to wither up. When Jesus said He would give His Kindgom to a people who would produce fruit He meant that He would give it to a people who would enter into that Kindgom through the New Covenant ( the Gospel) wether Jew or Gentile and both groups still exist today. The only way into this Kingdom is through the new birth. What you said still has no effect on Romans 11.In Romans 11 we still have Israel and the Church. Paul said "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew". Jeremiah talked of this in Jeremiah 31 when He talked of the New Covenant....Paul talked about it in Romans 11. All Jesus was saying is that His Kingdom would no longer be sacraficing animals and keeping laws.....for Jesus would once for all pay the price and those with faith could enter in....Jews and Gentiles.
Paul was very clear that God had blinded the Jews eyes. I sense your Arminianism is keeping you from accepting what Paul clearly is sayin here...God gave them a spirit of stupor...
"7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]
Romans 11:7
Paul then goes onto say that God will remove thier blinders. Certainly you dont beleive that happened in A.D.70! Think it has anything to do with Israel becoming a nation again? Wonder why Jeremaih and Ezekeil also prophecied that God would write His laws on thier hearts in the new covenant in the last days. Thats exactly what Jesus said.....He would remoive it from unbelieving Israel and give it to believers...both Jews and Gentiles. Read what Paul said about it again!!!
Romans 11:25-27
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
Jeremaih 31 is way cool Sean....even back then God new His Son would come,be rejected and He would break off a branch from the main root ( Israel ) and graft us in, all with this new Covenant made by the precious blood of Jesus, God is not a man that He should lie....when He says He swears an everlasting oath...He means it. He has sworn this everlasting oath to His people Israel and Paul understood it. I havent seen the moon and the stars fall from the sky yet...
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:
36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."
In His Service
Crusader
Matt 21:40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"
41 "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."
42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone:
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'?
43 "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
It amazes me that in your zeal to get rid of Gods plan for Israel you mishandle this whole passage Sean. If you read from the beggining its about Jesus the King of the Jews triumphal entry into Jerusalem. Its also about the Jews rejecting thier true Messiah Jesus. When Jesus curses the fig tree ,which is often representative of Israel,its showing that since they didnt bring forth fruit God caused them to wither up. When Jesus said He would give His Kindgom to a people who would produce fruit He meant that He would give it to a people who would enter into that Kindgom through the New Covenant ( the Gospel) wether Jew or Gentile and both groups still exist today. The only way into this Kingdom is through the new birth. What you said still has no effect on Romans 11.In Romans 11 we still have Israel and the Church. Paul said "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew". Jeremiah talked of this in Jeremiah 31 when He talked of the New Covenant....Paul talked about it in Romans 11. All Jesus was saying is that His Kingdom would no longer be sacraficing animals and keeping laws.....for Jesus would once for all pay the price and those with faith could enter in....Jews and Gentiles.
Paul was very clear that God had blinded the Jews eyes. I sense your Arminianism is keeping you from accepting what Paul clearly is sayin here...God gave them a spirit of stupor...
"7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]
Romans 11:7
Paul then goes onto say that God will remove thier blinders. Certainly you dont beleive that happened in A.D.70! Think it has anything to do with Israel becoming a nation again? Wonder why Jeremaih and Ezekeil also prophecied that God would write His laws on thier hearts in the new covenant in the last days. Thats exactly what Jesus said.....He would remoive it from unbelieving Israel and give it to believers...both Jews and Gentiles. Read what Paul said about it again!!!
Romans 11:25-27
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
Jeremaih 31 is way cool Sean....even back then God new His Son would come,be rejected and He would break off a branch from the main root ( Israel ) and graft us in, all with this new Covenant made by the precious blood of Jesus, God is not a man that He should lie....when He says He swears an everlasting oath...He means it. He has sworn this everlasting oath to His people Israel and Paul understood it. I havent seen the moon and the stars fall from the sky yet...
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:
36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."
In His Service
Crusader
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Re: Hi
Actually, I just quoted the text. You made the assumption.Crusader wrote: It amazes me that in your zeal to get rid of Gods plan for Israel you mishandle this whole passage Sean.
Can you show me some Old Testament verses that say Israel is called a fig tree?Crusader wrote: When Jesus curses the fig tree ,which is often representative of Israel,
You said I mishandled the passage, yet I didn't explain it, you did. Now when I read your explanation, I pretty much agree with it. Except I would add that those "groups" are called the Church, members of one body (Eph 2-3)Crusader wrote: If you read from the beggining its about Jesus the King of the Jews triumphal entry into Jerusalem. Its also about the Jews rejecting thier true Messiah Jesus. When Jesus curses the fig tree ,which is often representative of Israel,its showing that since they didnt bring forth fruit God caused them to wither up. When Jesus said He would give His Kindgom to a people who would produce fruit He meant that He would give it to a people who would enter into that Kindgom through the New Covenant ( the Gospel) wether Jew or Gentile and both groups still exist today. The only way into this Kingdom is through the new birth.
Ahh, here's were we disagree. You see, we don't have Israel and the Church, we have Israel in part who believe (they, as believers are part of the body, the Church), Israel in part who does not believe (these are the ones who are blinded) and Gentiles who believe (fellow citizens of the Jews in the Church).Crusader wrote:What you said still has no effect on Romans 11.In Romans 11 we still have Israel and the Church.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring
God's word has not failed. All Israel is being saved! But not all Isreal are part of true Israel (the Church). the natural people of Israel are not true Israel, only those who are of the promise are offspring:
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
And again, who are these people?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
This is Paul speaking about the impending destruction to come on the Jewish nation, on those who have not become Christians.
Paul then gives the second category, the true Israel:
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles
True Israel is not only Jews but also Gentile.
Paul is repeating this in the Romans 11 passage you keep quoting.
And who are God's people? Those whom He foreknew. That's the believers.Crusader wrote:Paul said "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew". Jeremiah talked of this in Jeremiah 31 when He talked of the New Covenant....Paul talked about it in Romans 11.
Your trying to make it say "Did God reject the descendants of Jacob?, No". As a matter of fact, God has rejected some of them, hardened them because they stumbled over Christ. But God has not rejected those whom He foreknew. Who are they? Those who accept Christ, making them part of the body of Christ, the Church.
If you are referring to Matt 21, then no, this is not what Jesus said at all. Jesus said the Kingdom will be taken away from you and given to another people. The Mozaic covenant was with all the people God lead out of Egypt. When God made the new covenant, it only includes the faithful remnant of those who were lead out of Egypt and later gentiles as well.Crusader wrote: All Jesus was saying is that His Kingdom would no longer be sacraficing animals and keeping laws.....for Jesus would once for all pay the price and those with faith could enter in....Jews and Gentiles.
No, again, it does not say that in Romans. It says that those who stumble over Christ and reject Him are the ones who are blinded.Crusader wrote: Paul was very clear that God had blinded the Jews eyes. I sense your Arminianism is keeping you from accepting what Paul clearly is sayin here...God gave them a spirit of stupor...
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
The ELECT include Jews and Gentiles.
Paul makes this perfectly clear by saying:
Rom 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.
By Paul including himself, he proves that the Jews are not blinded! Only some of them are, again the ones that reject Christ and refuse to come into the Church are the ones who are blinded.
No it does not. It says some are hardened (partial hardening) we already covered this. The non-elect Jews who stumble are the ones blinded (Rom 9:32). The elect Jews throughout all time are not hardened.Crusader wrote:
Romans 11:7
Paul then goes onto say that God will remove thier blinders.
Show me were it says the hardening will end and God will then turn to Israel. It clearly says "in this way all Israel will be saved". Paul is affirming that the way Israel is saved is by cutting the dead wood off and grafting on believers. This is the way all Israel (true Israel, consisting of believing Jews and Gentiles alike) will be saved.
I does not say "then all Israel will be saved" it says "and so", or "in this way all Israel will be saved".
This is were you are not understanding who God swore on an oath to. Who did God swear to? Who do these promises apply?Crusader wrote:
Certainly you dont beleive that happened in A.D.70!
Never said it did.
Nope. Israel was a nation in the way you are thinking of it under the old covenant. God ended that covenant. He's not going to break the new covenant and go back. In the new covenant, God's holy nation is the Church (1 Peter 2). I haven't noticed "God's people" the Church being gathered to their land.Crusader wrote:
Think it has anything to do with Israel becoming a nation again?
Your time frame is not correct. The last days that the apostles spoke of were their own days, when the new covenant repleced the old one.Crusader wrote: Wonder why Jeremaih and Ezekeil also prophecied that God would write His laws on thier hearts in the new covenant in the last days.
I've read it so many times I have it memorized, it doesn't say what you want it to say. As I have stated already.Crusader wrote: Thats exactly what Jesus said.....He would remoive it from unbelieving Israel and give it to believers...both Jews and Gentiles. Read what Paul said about it again!!!
God did not break off Israel. He broke some branches off Israel and grafted on some Gentiles onto Israel. If God reaplaced Israel and replaced them with us Gentiles, isn't that what you have been saying all along that God has not done?Crusader wrote: Jeremaih 31 is way cool Sean....even back then God new His Son would come,be rejected and He would break off a branch from the main root ( Israel ) and graft us in, all with this new Covenant made by the precious blood of Jesus,
Crusader wrote:God is not a man that He should lie....when He says He swears an everlasting oath...He means it. He has sworn this everlasting oath to His people Israel and Paul understood it. I havent seen the moon and the stars fall from the sky yet...
You make them apply to unbelievers.
The Bible makes this easy for us:
Gal 3:7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
This proves that the promises God swore were to those who are believers in Christ, the head of the body the Church.
If your no part of the Church, the promises are not to you. Jesus couldn't say the Kingdom would be taken away from them if God promised not to do that.
The promises apply the Jesus and His body.
What Paul quotes also proves this:
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
When does Jesus take away sins? When did Peter say this happend to the Jews? Not in 1948, they didn't have to wait that long.
Peter said:
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."
So the covenant made with them (Rom 11:27) is when an individual repents and is saved, because that is when there sins are taken away. Not 1948. They didn't have to wait for that.
You need to face the fact that God's promises are to Abraham and Jesus and anyone who repents and believes. This is when the new covenant applies to you and your sins are taken away. Not by going to the land Israel dwelt in, but by turning to Christ.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)