If there is to be no millineum.......

[Guest]

Okay, here goes:

I've tried to stay out of these discussions for a few reasons:

1) I'm a (post-trib) progressive dispensationalist aka historic premill/ chialist (sounds kinda impressive huh!)
2) Most people here seem to be partial preterist/amillennial
3) I've found that pps/am's tend to be extremely well-versed in their understanding of eschatology whereas I'm an End-Times 'toddler'. I know I would get battered in any debates with yall.
4) Eschatology tends to be the one topic which saints tend to get over-emotional abnd aggiated over (perhaps second only to OSAS/TULIP)

But I have to get involved in this thread (Lord help me).

I have often heard it said that the children of Israel have yet to receive the full inheritance of land which was promised to their forefather Abraham. But that Joshua passage has just thrown a big spanner in the works there. I'm going to need to check that up.

However, the land was promised to the man Abraham (and Isaac and Jacob) as an "ever-lasting" possession:

8 Also I give to you [Abraham] and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” (Genesis 17, cf. Jeremiah 7:7 and 25:5)

We know that Israel didn't possess the land for very long before the Assyrians and then the Babylonians swooped upon them. We know that they returned to the land but were again kicked-out in the first and second centuries AD - all three exiles brought about as judgement on Israel for their harlotry and unfaithfulness (culminating in their rejection of the Messiah).

As I understand things, the Lord is going to return and when He returns, He will restore a remnant of Jews to the land. They will possess that same land forever and ever, thus fulfilling the promise made to Abraham.

I'm curious, how would this issue be understood within a pp/amill perspective?

[Guest]

Hi Ely,

Welcome. you probably won't get battered, because in one post, you have demonstrated an openness to dialogue, unlike some who come blazing in to tell us that we are cronies who only try to spiritualize the Bible.

An amill will typically look to the New Testament to see how Jesus and the apostles interpreted the Old Testament. "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ." Galatians 3:16

Now: "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior, is the fulfillment of every promise to Israel. dispensationalists disagree. Whereas most Christians see Christ as the fulfillment, dispies look to dirt in the Middle East as a such. That, and a temple.

As Paul (the Hebrew of Hebrews) wrote, christ is the One to Whom the promises were made. If anyone is in christ, Jew opr Gentile, they receive the promises as well.

Jews must be in Christ, not in Palestine, not in a temple, in order to receive the promises.

[Guest]

However, the land was promised to the man Abraham (and Isaac and Jacob) as an "ever-lasting" possession:

8 Also I give to you [Abraham] and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” (Genesis 17, cf. Jeremiah 7:7 and 25:5)

We know that Israel didn't possess the land for very long before the Assyrians and then the Babylonians swooped upon them. We know that they returned to the land but were again kicked-out in the first and second centuries AD - all three exiles brought about as judgement on Israel for their harlotry and unfaithfulness (culminating in their rejection of the Messiah).

As I understand things, the Lord is going to return and when He returns, He will restore a remnant of Jews to the land. They will possess that same land forever and ever, thus fulfilling the promise made to Abraham.

I'm curious, how would this issue be understood within a pp/amill perspective?

FYI - I apparently was posting this while JD was posting his article. I argree with what he has said, but I have tried to give a bit more of a trail of my logic as well...

Hi Ely,

I am an amil and a pp as you put it... (at least I'm pretty sure)

The promise was made to Abraham and his Seed (Gen 12:7/Gal3:16). Since Gal 3:16 associates the Seed with Jesus, and Christians are 'in Him', then the promise is now to Christians, not to physical Isreal. I'm not sure that there are any more promises for physical Israel, unless they become Christians!

Along this lines of thought, if the land is literal, it could be fulfilled in the new heavens/earth (Mt 5:5), however, it is likely spiritual and relating to the blessing of deliverance from sin that Jesus has brought (Acts 3:26).

Seen another way, there was a natural fulfillment for physical Israel during the days of Joshua and I guess it is arguable as to whether it has come true or not (I don't get involved in this myself as the Joshua passage seems to end the argument for me). Even if it doesn't appear as a final fulfilment, that doesn't really matter, as there is a much greater 'ultimate' fulfillment in Jesus/the church/Messianic Kingdom (Zech 9:10).

Just like the book of Hebrews argues that the new covenant is better than the old:

Jesus' kingdom covers the entire earth now, and
Instead of a blessing in real estate, Christians enjoy deliverance from sin!

Yahoo!

Les

[Guest]

However, the land was promised to the man Abraham (and Isaac and Jacob) as an "ever-lasting" possession:

8 Also I give to you [Abraham] and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.” (Genesis 17, cf. Jeremiah 7:7 and 25:5)

I've heard the claim that since Israel is in dispute with the Pelestinians over land that the promise has not been fully realized yet, but there is something that I have never heard addressed. We confuse the covenant with Isaac with the promise to Abraham. God promised the land to Abraham's descendants...which include the Arabs.
D.

[Guest]

Aarondisney...you are learning the difficulty of debating a preterist...anything can mean anything and they are very hard to pin down....its fascinating theology for those reasons although its wrong.I have said they should call this the Hellenium because frankly things are getting worse not better...they have us in thier 1900 year Mellenium,they have satan bound and they have done away with Israel and put the Church in its place...despite Jeremiah 31. They must be blind thinking things are getting better cause I sure dont see it from my vantage point and I dare say I think the person on the street would agree.They really cant argue much over that little factoid. Hellenium...kind of has a ring to it and seems rather fitting in thier case...!!!!

Maranatha

Crusader

[Guest]

Hi Crusader,

I hope I'm not taking this discussion to far off topic by responding to your last post, but I'm curious, in what way do you mean that "things are getting worse not better"?

Life expectancy is higher overall than it's ever been (at least since the times of Genesis); globally there are more Christians per capita now than ever before; the overall standard of living has never been higher; in Europe the number of murders has declined from roughly 40 per 100,000 in the 14th Century to 1 per 100,000 in the 20th Century; thanks to communications technology the Gospel can be taken anywhere on earth and wealthy nations can respond quickly to disasters (natural or man-made) in other parts of the world (such as when the Indian Ocean tsunami occurred); etc., etc. Most importantly, the kingdom of our Lord Jesus continues to advance!

Yes, we still have the Rwanda's and North Korea's - man's sinful nature is still manifest - we still have poverty and war - there is still much work to do - but getting worse? Based on what statistics? Most people on the street would rather be alive today than at any other time in the past!

One of the disturbing things about dispensationalism/pre-millennialism is the bleak outlook on life it gives people. I'm sorry but I think every day is a gift. This is not "Hellenium". This is an exciting time to be alive and following Jesus!

The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it,
the world, and all who live in it;
for he founded it upon the seas
and established it upon the waters.

Who may ascend the hill of the LORD
Who may stand in his holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to an idol
or swear by what is false.
He will receive blessing from the LORD
and vindication from God his Savior.
Such is the generation of those who seek him,
who seek your face, O God of Jacob. Selah

Lift up your heads, O you gates;
be lifted up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
Who is this King of glory?
The LORD strong and mighty,
the LORD mighty in battle.
Lift up your heads, O you gates;
lift them up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.

Who is he, this King of glory?
The LORD Almighty—
he is the King of glory.

Psalm 24

I don't want to escape this world! I want to follow Jesus in engaging this world! I want to tell those who are lost that the love of the Good Shepherd is so great that He will not allow them to be "left behind".

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us." 2 Cor. 5:17-20

Regarding Jeremiah 31, it's already been accomplished. Read Hebrews 8. Read Romans (the whole letter, not just selected verses) to see that the true Israel are those who are justified by faith. Read Galatians (especially chapter 3).

There's an interesting book I own called "The Day and the Hour" by Francis Gumerlock. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091581 ... e&n=283155
Here's the description:

"Trying to predict the return of Christ and the end of the ages began two thousand years ago and continues to this day. Gummerlock has compiled a one-of-a-kind history of these foolhardy predictions. This fascinating chronicle of predictions will rivet the attention of any student of Bible prophecy. Regardless of your eschatological position, you must have this book. Gumerlock looks at date-setting from the first century to the present and beyond showing the utter futility of trying to predict when the end might come."

If the year were 1351 and the Black Plague had just swept through Europe, wiping out half of the population, I might understand your assertion that "things are getting worse not better". As it stands though, the year is 2006 and I think you're just seeing what you want to see (and missing out on a whole lot!).

[_Sean]

Aarondisney...you are learning the difficulty of debating a preterist...anything can mean anything and they are very hard to pin down....its fascinating theology for those reasons although its wrong.I have said they should call this the Hellenium because frankly things are getting worse not better...they have us in thier 1900 year Mellenium,they have satan bound and they have done away with Israel and put the Church in its place...despite Jeremiah 31. They must be blind thinking things are getting better cause I sure dont see it from my vantage point and I dare say I think the person on the street would agree.They really cant argue much over that little factoid. Hellenium...kind of has a ring to it and seems rather fitting in thier case...!!!!

Maranatha

Crusader

The difficulty is that you still have never responded to Ephesians 2-3 yet.

Aaron,
Since others responded as well to your assertion, I just wanted to say for the record that I was Amil, amoung other things before I ever knew Steve. I was very impressed to find someone who gives his teachings away instead of charging for what God has given him.

I also wanted to state that I am Amil because I let the new testament authors interpret the Bible itself. Many times this means the old testament passages they quote.

Since you are studying, I'll give you a test. It's a simple test you can keep in the back of your mind as you study this topic. Everytime a new testament character quotes from the OT, did they apply the passage literally or not? And why?

If you want to know why I'm Amil, that's why. When the NT quotes the OT, it more times than not, does not take it literally or as it originally appeared in it's original context.

A great example of this is the promise to Abraham. Paul sees it differently than you do in Galatians 3, so I go with Paul, not what seems right to me.

You asked:

Why did they never ever control all of the actual real estate that God had promised to them

They were given all the things God promised (as Matt already stated). But does this mean they get it back? God gave it to them, all of it. They didn't keep the conditions of the covenant so they got thrown out. Where do you read they need to control all the real estate? If God gave it to them then how did they not have it?

I can go to many areas in the U.S. where there are few if any inhabitants. Does that mean they are not part of the U.S. yet? What would it take? One person per 10 square miles? Per 5? Don't you see you are imposing something you have been taught? Something that goes against the very words of God.

You quote Malachi 3 just fine, but when Matt quotes Joshua 21 you cry foul. Why?

They lost the land. Now, why would they get the land back? They lost the land because they disobeyed. The land promise is not unconditional. If the land promise was unconditional God could not have thrown them out, not even for a microsecond!

How could God throw them out of the land if it was unconditional? You can't say "disobedience" because that would be a condition.

So you've got to face this one simple fact. Either the land promise is conditional or unconditional.

Let's look at some of the fine print:

Lev 26:40 "But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery that they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me,
Lev 26:41 so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies--if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity,
Lev 26:42 then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.
Lev 26:43 But the land shall be abandoned by them and enjoy its Sabbaths while it lies desolate without them, and they shall make amends for their iniquity, because they spurned my rules and their soul abhorred my statutes.

So they have to actually make amends for their sin and turn to God before God will even remember the covenant with Abraham? And the land? This doesn't sound unconditional at all.

And we know there is no other way under heaven that we can turn to God except by Jesus.

[_Sean]

I think we need to let the Bible speak for itself

Joshua 21
43 So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. 45 Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.

Are you willing to take this language literally?

Nah, I think I'll spiritualize it (preterist style) I think "all the land" means "most of the land" - ya know like 1000years means 2000

Can you explain these:


Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
Psa 50:11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
Psa 50:12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.

Ch 16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
1Ch 16:16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
1Ch 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

Psa 105:8 He remembers his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

So we should take thousand literally, because as you say, why would God say it if he didn't mean it?

So why say a thousand here if He meant everlasting? So does God only own the cattle on a thousand hills but not a single one besides?

Jesus is said to be a lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns. Why not take it literally?

Maybe to the Amil, the thousand isn't consecutive, eh? Why is it ok for you to be non-literal in Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 when Jesus says "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled"?

It's fine to ask questions if your honestly seeking an answer. Just realize that if you try to pin the "you spiritualize to get your interpretation" on people that it can be turned right back to you.

[Guest]

If you think about this milleneum after Christ returns some strange conditions would exist. You would have a glorified Christ with glorified Saints ruling and mingling among sinful people. The temple would be rebuilt and animal sacrifices would resume but for what purpose? Dispens say they would be for a memorial for Christ but in Ezekial it specifically says the sacrifices are for atonement. So which is it, is it something unbiblical or is it something also unbiblical? Then after Christ visibly reigns with a rod of iron for a thousand years Satan is released for a short time and leads a massive army against the camp of the saints. What would be the purpose of all this be? To demonstrate something we already know which is that the "heart of man is desperately wicked." On the other hand if we are in the milleneum now take a look around you. Yes it's true in general the physical conditions of the world have gotten a lot better but is Satan in the process of gathering a huge army to attack the camp of the saints?
If you accept the historical view of Revelation then chap 9 may be about the muslim invasion against the civilized world. They wore yellow turbins which looked like crowns of gold, they had long hair like women,they swarmed like locusts because they were expert horsemen, they were told in the Quran not to disburb the trees or grass, Mohammed was a fallen star,they were led by Appolyon etc etc. Therefore although they were defeated they were'nt destroyed and in Rev 17 that beast which was dorment is ascending out of the bottomless pit and everyone is marveling at it's power.
The people of the beast are living in all the nations now and in a generation will control Earope so at some point Satan will be able to deceive the nations.
I think we are living toward the tail end of the milleneum and it's coming true before our eyes.
I'm not worryed because in the end they will be destroyed by God's judgement but it's nice to know what's happening.

[Guest]

Regarding the covenant God made with Abram,

On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, (Gen 15:18)

It was fulfilled physically in the time of Solomon. Notice the border descriptions are as God had promised.

Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the Euphrates to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt. They brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life. (1 Ki 4:20-21)

Also if we were to consider the word "everlasting" as in

And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God. (Gen 17:8)

Most Christians would agree with Peter that this planet will somehow be destroyed by fire.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. (2 Pet 3:10-13)

So are we expected to take the word "everlasting" to mean without ending?

Is there an alternative interpretation to the Abrahamic covenant? What about spiritual fulfilment? Consider who the offspring is:

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. (Gal 3:16)

Christ is Abraham's offspring. But in Christ, all believers/followers of Jesus are also Abraham's offspring.

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. (Gal 3:29)

He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. (Rom 4:11-12)

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (Rom 4:16)

Therefore, could the promised land be spiritually fulfilled? Consider

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. (Heb 11:8-10)

These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. (Heb 11:13-16)