"Until the TIMES of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.&qu

[Guest]

Ezekiel 34:13
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.
Jeremiah 31:10
"Hear the word of the Lord, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: 'He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.'

Deuteronomy 30:3-5
then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.

I agree with all of these. The question is, when were they written? We know Deuteronomy, but what about Ezekeil and Jeremiah?

The Jewish exile was from 586-538 BC with the first group returning in 538 BC. Jeremiah was written before this, we know this because Daniel (who wrote during the exile) partially quoted Jeremiah in Daniel 9:2.

Ezekiel wrote before and during the early part of the exile and as you correctly stated, predicted that the exile would end and the Jews would return to their land.

Some people don't think this is right because they say God only sent the Jews to Babylon, not scatter them across many lands. But that is what Daniel says happened:

Dan 9:7 To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you

The main reason that some groups dont like the fact that God predicted His people would become a nation again ,which happened in 1948,are that it shoots their theology to pieces. That God isn't through with Israel is quite evident from than the fact that they came back to the land in 1948.

It also teaches us that God doesn't break His covenants.

You're right, God doesn't break His covenants. By the way, which covenant do you have in mind? The new covenant that requires faith is Jesus Christ? The Abrahamic covenant that applies to Jesus Christ and all who believe? Or the Mosaic covenant that is obsolete and has been replaced by the new covenant (Hebrews 8:13 & 10:1-10)?

It also fits into Romans 11 where Paul says that gentiles have been grafted in but that God hasn't abandoned His chosen people.

That's right, Paul even states that he is evedence that God has not rejected the people God foreknew. So do you believe that God has been recieving His people thoughout the church age? Or had God stopped dealing with Jews until 1948+?

When you factor in the fact that Israel is actively training priests to preform temple ceremonies as we speak and plans on rebuilding the temple its begins to complete the last days scenario with exacting detail.

When were we ever told to look forward to something that was a shadow of the new covenant (Heb 10:1)? Hebrews makes it clear that the temple ceremonies were temporary. Going back to them is just more disobedience.

And h do you find this "last days scenario with exacting detail" in the Bible?

Paul said in his letter to the Thessalonians that the day of the Lord wouldn't come until the son of perdition sets foot in the temple...what temple is that....well its the one thats going to be built.

Now think about that. What happened to the Jerusalem temple in 70AD? What confort would it be to those living after 70AD reading Paul's letter? Paul never mentioned a different temple than the one they knew existed in Jerusalem. To say Paul meant another temple is adding something to the text that is not there. Actually, in Daniel it says there will be 70 "weeks" total until the city and sanctuary that was rebuilt would be destroyed. That specific temple was destroyed in 70AD. Even if you build another one now, it won't be the temple mentioned in Daniel 9.

What stopped the 70th week of Daniel dead in its tracks was Christ starting the Church....

If the 70th week has not come as the angel told Daniel then the prophecy is wrong. 490 years have literally passed.

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

So is it 70 "weeks" (490 years) or 2490+ years? Again, why add to the text. Either the angel told Daniel legitimate information or he did not. What good is it to give a time frame in years if it's not accurate?

Remember when Jesus said:

Mar 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

What time is fulfilled? The only time Jesus could be referring to is a time predicted to occur, the Kingdom of God.

Paul said until the times of the gentiles were fulfilled.

Actually Paul said:
"a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, (ESV)

The unbelieving Jews are the ones hardened, the believing Jews are always saved. The believing Gentiels are grafted in and in this way all Israel is saved. Israel being Jew+Gentile. It's another way of saying all true Israel (Christians) are saved.

This is what Paul states in Ephesians 2&3:

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--
Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Eph 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
Eph 2:21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
Eph 2:22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Jew and Gentile are one. Gentiles who were once "far off" are now fellow citizens with Israel.

Once that happens the last 7 years of Daniel is going to occur,the tribulation. Getting Gods program for the Church and Gods program for Israel confused is what a lot of people fall into. Clearly God is not finished with Israel and the fact that it is spoken of in the Old Testament and fulfilled a couple of thousand years later is ample proof of that.

Breaking the last week of Daniel off and placing it out of context in some future event is not a very likely nor literal approach to Daniel 9.

The Church is God's eternal purpose and plan. Unless you can be saved without Jesus. because once you believe on Christ and are saved, you become a member of Christ's body, which is the church (Eph 1:22-23).

God never was finished with Jewish people, Paul says so himself (Rom 11:1). You seem to be saying that God has rejected "His people" until the Chruch is delt with, then God will deal with Israel again. But again, Paul disagrees by saying he is Jewish and is saved. For what you are suggesting to be true, Paul would have to say (in Romans 11:1):

Has God rejected His people? Yes, but only temporarily, until the fulness of the Gentiles, and then God will again accept them.

Paul does not say this. He says the opposite.

[Guest]

2 Thes 2:3 "Let no one decieve you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped so that he sits as God in the temple of God."

Rev. 20:3 "And he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, so that he should decieve the nations no more till the thousand years were finished"

Rev. 20: 4 "And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Rev. 20:5 "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

I take these verses to mean what they say. I don't need some kind of "spiritual" meaning for these verses because they contradict my view of escatolgy. And this is a huge problem with preterism and amillinialism. You have to come up with a "spiritual " interpretation for verses like these because they contradict your views.

I believe Paul meant what he said and there "Will" be an actual person, who will sit in the temple of God esalting himself above all that is called God.

The only problem is that whenever Paul wrote in his letters about the temple of God elsewere he meant the body of Christ, the Church.

1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?
1Co 3:17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

Does this mean Paul spiritualized the temple?

[Guest]

The next problem is that not only are Jews not pouring into Israel today, there are many leaving because they are getting blown up on a regular basis and live in constant fear of attack (just as God said they would if they turned from Him). They have no assurance from God that they will live in peace because they would have to actaully obey God for this to be so. This would mean accepting Christ, which they are able to do, even in this present age as Paul says in Romans 11:1 & 11:14.

And finally, a Jew is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly (Rom 2:28-29). Even Jesus called unbelieving Jews sons of thier father the devil (John 8:44) and of those who claim they are Jews but are not (Revelation 2:9 & 3:9).
My info is different in that Israel's population which is now 6 1/2 million is projected to increase to 8 million in the not to distant future. More religious jews are moving there whereas earlier it was secular jews. Re Romans 2.28 & John 8.44 i agree about spiritrual jews being true jews but this is about ethnic jews who reject Christ. As you know God's ways are not our ways and He usually does things through the most unlikely people.
Btw this is not about rebuilding the temple or the milleneum just about Israel's rebirth.
"Thus saith the Lord if i HAVE NOT APPOINTED THE ORDINANCES OF HEAVEN AND EARTH ,then I WILL cast away the seed of Jacob for i will cause their captivity to return and have mercy on them." Jer 31.35-37
Note God says as sure as He created heaven and earth is as sure as He will show mercy on them.

Zechariah was written after the return from Babylonian captivity and during the building of the temple.
"Zech 8.7-8 "Thus saith the Lord of Hosts ,Behold I will save my people from the east country and from the west country. And I will bring them and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem and they shall be my people and I will be their God in thruth and in righteousness."

Zech 8.13 "And it shall come to pass, that as you were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah,and house of Israel,so i will save you , and you shall be a blessing,fear not but let your hands be strong."

Isaiah 2.1-4 "The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills.
for out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

Zech 12.6 "And Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place even in Jerusalem."
Up until the 67 war Jerusalem in part belonged to Israel but afterwards all of it belonged to Israel possibly fulfilling this "in her own place."

They took a poll in Europe recently about what country was the biggest threat to world peace. Guess who won, yes it was Israel, so the world would consider it a "burden" would it not?

Zech 12.3 "I will make Jerusalem a STONE OF BURDEN for all the peoples ,all that burden themselves with it shall be sore wounded and all the nations of the earth shall be gathered together against it."

You are correct about Zechariah's timeframe, notice how it says they will be "saved".

Notice in Romans 11 it says all Israel will be "saved".

Did you get saved by physically going to Jerusalem? Or by believing on Jesus Christ?

In the same context it says:

Zec 12:9 And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

When was the Spirit of Grace poured out? Pentacost. Who was it poured out on? Jews. When did they mourn for piercing Jesus?

Joh 19:36 For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "They will look on him whom they have pierced."

Also, Jesus said:
Luk 19:42 saying, "Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side
Luk 19:44 and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation."

So are the people who pierced Jesus still alive today? If not, then how can they ever in the future look on the one they pierced literally?

Also, Hebrews says:

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

I'm in the Church, but I didn't go to mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem. But this passage connects them all together. Coming to Jesus is coming to mount Zion, etc. That's what this passage states.

Paul also makes this comparison between earthy Jerusalem and Heavenly Jerusalem:

Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman.
Gal 4:23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise.
Gal 4:24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband."
Gal 4:28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman."
Gal 4:31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

Note God says as sure as He created heaven and earth is as sure as He will show mercy on them.

Absolutely God has mercy on them.

Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
1Pe 2:10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


But they must accept Christ, unless there is some other name under heaven that you can be saved.

[Guest]

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 RSV)



I really appreciate your long worded reply but in all honesty you need to just adress what the Word says here...its pretty plain. Paul is framing against the backdrop of our Lords return,a pretty important event,then he adds,LET NO ONE DECIEVE YOU....these things cant happen unless all these things HAPPEN....and it says he takes his seat in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. How plain can Paul get....

[Guest]

Hi Roger,

I take these verses to mean what they say as well. The problem is, I think they mean something other than what you believe them to be.

For example, 2 Thess. 2:3, could very well be speaking of the 70 A.D. judgment that came upon the Jews, as Jesus predicted. The word apostasia can also mean “revolt”. Paul very well could be communicating that the day of judgment against the Jews would not occur until their rebellion aginst Rome, whom God was use to punish them.

In this view, Jesus’s prediction of the coming of “all these things”, i.e., the desctruction of the temple and the end of the outmoded sacrificial system, were fulfilled. We now have a solid, historical apologetic for unbelievers, rather than the fickle end times speculation based on a patchwork of unexegeted passages and newspaper clippings.

Rev. 20:3 "And he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, so that he should decieve the nations no more till the thousand years were finished"

Rev. 20: 4 "And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."


When did these things occur? Do you take all of John’s word to mean what they say? “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place;” Revelation 1:1

What does “shortly” mean here to the recipients of this letter? “Shortly means that when it happens, it will happen quickly. A day with God is as a thousand years, so God has only been gone for two days.”

I know the response, because I was one who attended all the prophecy conferences, heard all the New Year’s Eve prophecy updates, was brought up in a dispensational church, and didn’t want to let go of what was staring me in the face, because it “contradicted my view of eschatology.”

When Paul said to Timothy, “Make every effort to come to me soon (same word),” did he mean, “I don’t care if it takes you three decades to get to me, but when you get going, run really fast,” or did he mean, “please get here soon”?

Rev. 20:5 "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Are numbers always to be taken literally in the Bible? Can this verse mean something other than what you think?

I just disagree with the presuppositions in this thread.

1. God has two people, the church (made up of believing Jews and Gentiles), and atheist Jews.

“Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,” Ephesians 2:11-15

2. Jesus hasn’t fulfilled the Old Covenant types and shadows. “When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” Hebrews 8:13

3. The literalistic hermeneutic is superior. When did Jesus chastise people for taking his words spiritually? It seems that time and again, he rebuked people for taking his words in a literalistic fashion, thereby missing the spiritual (or true) application. Nicodemus thought he had to climb into his mother’s womb. Many of his followers thought they had to snack on Jesus’s body. The unbelieving Jews (and modern day dispensationalists) think that the word “temple” always means a physical structure. Jesus referred to Himself as the temple.

4. God will one day be pleased with sacrifices other than Christ's. “For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.” Psalm 51:16-17

5. Jesus forgot to tell us of another day that will come. "Jesus said^ to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:21-24

[Guest]

Can you find one Scripture where it says that GOD has abandoned His people Israel....

[Guest]

Just speaking for myself i started the thread only to present the possibility that Israel's rebirth is not coincidental. It has nothing to do with salvation or who are the real jews or whether they are a stiff necked people. No doubt there is only one name in which man can be saved. This is only an eschalogical topic. And lastly for those who think God would never use Christ rejectors to do his will what would you have called Paul before his encounter?

[Guest]

Crusader - this is the problem we are having here. There is not a correct understanding as to who Israel is. You think Israel is a human race of people holding a promise given to Abraham by God. However, Isreal is not that at all but instead is a holy race of people made of a remnant, who are the faithful believers - both Jew and Gentile. So to answer your question; No God certainly has never abandoned His people - the same people which Paul spoke of as those whom He foreknew.

[Guest]

Can you find one Scripture where it says that GOD has abandoned His people Israel....

If you mean Israel as a national entity, have you read this:

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable. There was a certain housemaster who planted a vineyard and hedged it round about, and dug a winepress in it, and built a tower, and rented it to vinedressers, and went into a far country.
Mat 21:34 And when the season of the fruits drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers to receive its fruits.
Mat 21:35 And the vinedressers took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did the same to them.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent his son to them, saying, They will respect my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and get hold of his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And taking him, they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Mat 21:40 Therefore when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?
Mat 21:41 They said to Him, Bad men! He will miserably destroy them and will rent out his vineyard to other vinedressers who will give him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus said to them, Did you never read in the Scriptures, "The stone which the builders rejected, this One has become the head of the corner; this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?"
Mat 21:43 Therefore I say to you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing out its fruits.
Mat 21:44 And he who falls on this Stone shall be broken, but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that He spoke of them.

The Kingdom of God is taken from one nation (Israel) and given to another nation (the church). Do you see God ever wrestling the kingdom away from Jesus and giving it back to the "nation" of Israel?

[Guest]

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 RSV)



I really appreciate your long worded reply but in all honesty you need to just adress what the Word says here...its pretty plain. Paul is framing against the backdrop of our Lords return,a pretty important event,then he adds,LET NO ONE DECIEVE YOU....these things cant happen unless all these things HAPPEN....and it says he takes his seat in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. How plain can Paul get....

So you don't agree that Paul used "the temple" as something other than the physical Jerusalem temple?

You can interpret it anyway you want. All I can do is interpret scripture with scripture. When Paul mentioned the temple of God in his other letters he was talking about the church.

Besides, how do you know that there wasn't someone who did all these things in the temple that was standing when Paul wrote. How could Paul offer any assurance to the Thessalonians if he didn't mention what temple he was talking about? Wouldn't they be confused? Since, as you say, it's obvious that it's the Jerusalem temple? The Thessalonians might have thought the same thing, except about the temple standing at the time. Yet Paul never said: "No not that temple, a future one".