1948

[Guest]

I would attribute these words in Ezekiel 37 to this event although it doesnt use the year 1948 ,for these to become realized Israel would have to be physically back in thier land,which happened in 1948.

"21 and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

 24 " 'My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.' "

I will make a covenant of peace with them,an everlasting covenant.They and there childrens children will live there forever. The nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy when my sanctuary is among them forever.

1.Everlasting covenant of peace is the Gospel.
2.They will live there forever,which is time without end,that is permanent.
3.The nations will know or realize that God made them Holy when His
sanctuary is with them forever.


Crusader

[Guest]

Which of these things happened, either in 1948 or in the half-century since then? You listed:

1.Everlasting covenant of peace is the Gospel.

Have the Jews in Israel embraced the gospel?

2.They will live there forever,which is time without end,that is permanent.

But not in Gaza, apparently.

3.The nations will know or realize that God made them Holy when His
sanctuary is with them forever.

Where is this sanctuary? Could you post a photograph of it?

[Guest]

First I want to make clear that although I am a futurist with regards to many of the biblical prophecies, I an not a dispensationalist, nor do I believe that God has a special plan, a different plan of salvation for Jewish people who have rejected their Messiah as an imposter.

However, I would recommend caution concerning the idea of the church replacing Israel.

Therefore there is no shame or error in describing the Church as the replacement of Israel. Israel must become a part of the body of the Church and that church is borne up by the root, being Christ Jesus. The Church, being of the Spirit, is grafted on through grace.

Israel as a whole sinned greatly many times through the decades and centuries in the past, worshipping and sacrificing to other gods, even offering their children in sacrifice. Nevertheless, through all those years, there was always a remnant who worshipped and served Yahweh.
That remnant was the TRUE ISRAEL and was honoured by God as His true people. Sometimes God even allowed sinning "Israel" who were not His true people to continue, or witheld judgment from them for the sake of His remnant. So True Israel continued within national Israel for all those years. At the time the Messiah appeared on earth, the remnant of Israel consisted of His disciples. Thus true Israel continued.

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.... Romans 22:1,2

God had a plan for True Israel (the remant). This plan continued right into the days of the apostles. Then a new thing happened, "a mystery". The Gentiles were grafted into the "Olive Tree" (True Israel), if they submitted themselves to the Messiah as Lord of their lives. There was no "replacement". It was a continuation of the True Israel as well as an enlargement of the same. The Assembly of the True Israel was later called "the Church" (a word which actually means "assembly"). It wasn't a replacement. It was a continuation.

In Jesus' day, Messiah-rejecting "Israel" had no part in the True Israel. Prior to that, those who worshipped other gods "hung on" as a nation, but they were never really a part of True Israel unless they served Yahweh (as far as they were capable of serving Him).

[Guest]

I would attribute these words in Ezekiel 37 to this event although it doesnt use the year 1948 ,for these to become realized Israel would have to be physically back in thier land,which happened in 1948.

So even though it says God will raise them out of their graves, you don't take this literally? Even though it says that will happen before they are put back in theiir land.

It also says David will be king over them. Taking this literally (as you did in the other thread) means that the resurrection would have had to take place first, as Ezekiel says happens first.

So I ask again:
1. Did the resurrection occur yet?
2. Has David been raised from the dead?
3. Are they keeping God's laws (verse 24)?

If you are looking for a literal fulfilment, you can't spiritualize away the resurrection from the dead, David being king over them, them keeping God's laws and them having the Spirit.

Keep that method of interpretation up and you will soon be amillennial.

[Guest]

Just my thoughts. I'm developing an historical view of Rev although i agree it was written prior to 70AD. I think Jerusalem was and has always been the harlot , has always been a burdensome stone and once again is the harlot and will be attacked by the beast coming out of the pit. The lands that went into the pit are now muslim and the beast has come out of the pit . The army that attacked Jerusalem in 70AD were from locals not Romans and the locals were from lands that are now arab. So the 10 kings IMHO are not european but middle eastern who want to burn the flesh of the harlot.
Anyway i see no reason for a thousand year millineum but i think the rebirth of Israel is beyond coincidence. Seems to me that we may be in a period of time where the nations are being deceived. Time will tell.

[Guest]

Sean when Ezekiel got this prophecy it was regarding Israel and thier return to the land and God said it would be FOREVER...after Israel was scattered for the last time no one ever gave them any credible chance to ever return to thier land yet after 1900 years the most remarkable thing occured..Israel returned. This prophecy speaks of this and much much more yet to be fulfilled. It mentions most reamarkably that God will make a new covenant with them...an everlasting covenant.

"'My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.' "


Now I dont know about you Sean but to me an everlasting covenant,and living in the land forever and ever is a long long time..in fact its so long it never ends. These continued fulfillments though, to Bible prophecy are going to continue to baffle those who hold to the static preterist view. Because they say all this stuff cant be happening because most of this stuff was fulfilled in 70 A.D. yet it continues to be fulfilled before there very eyes. So preterists are frozen in a static system by saying its been fulfilled,although there attempt to stop Gods prophetic clock from ticking only leads them to frustration when even trying to explain these few verses here. Was God confused here? Was Ezekiel really a prophet? Did Israel really return? I mean you got some issues here to deal with. But by saying we are in the Millenium...and Satans been bound..and most of Revelation has already happened preterists paint themselves into a prophecy corner that they cant get out of. Plus more and more is going to continually keep getting fulfilled before our eyes.


Crusader

[Guest]

'My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.' "

I don't think interpreting this correctly necessarily has to do with one's eschatology. Christ clearly delivered the new covenant and He clearly said He has ONE FLOCK and ONE FOLD. There is no significance to ethnic Israel except i believe as a culmination of end time events before Christ's second coming. But the everlasting covenant is what Christ gave us , it's the same one from Jeremiah 31.31 offered first to ethnic Israel and then to the true seed of Abraham which are the followers of Christ.
The rest of the prophecy i believe is referring to New Jerusalem and "my servent David" i believe is a metaphor for Christ in this case.

[Guest]

I suppose there is no reason to address any comments to Crusader, since he either never reads them, or never has the courtesy to answer them. However, for the sake of any readers who may not understand the issues he raises any better than he does, and yet who possess better aptitude in the art of following a line of argument, I will not leave his most recent comments unanswered. In this, I will show him greater consideration than he has shown me.

Crusader wrote: "These continued fulfillments though, to Bible prophecy are going to continue to baffle those who hold to the static preterist view. Because they say all this stuff cant be happening because most of this stuff was fulfilled in 70 A.D."

Two things here.

First, I don't know any preterists who believe that anything in the passage you quoted was fulfilled in AD 70—and I doubt that you know any either.

Second, you have several times mentioned "continued fulfillments" of prophecy that "baffle" preterists. The only thing I am finding baffling is which prophecies you are seeing as fulfilled. You identified three features in Ezekiel 37 in an earlier post. I asked you which of them you thought you had seen fulfilled in modern times, because I have not seen any of them. You have declined to answer, so I am left only to conclude that it is you that are baffled by the non-fulfillment of any of the prophecies.

Crusader wrote: "yet it continues to be fulfilled before there very eyes. So preterists are frozen in a static system by saying its been fulfilled,although there attempt to stop Gods prophetic clock from ticking only leads them to frustration when even trying to explain these few verses here."

I don't know any preterists who are trying to stop God's clock, or His watch, or His egg timer, from ticking. Nor is anything presently leading to my frustration other than your refusal to engage in this discussion.

Crusader wrote: " Was God confused here? Was Ezekiel really a prophet? Did Israel really return?"

No, God was not confused. Ezekiel predicted that God would bring the remnant of Israel back from Babylon to Jerusalem, and He kept His promise, beginning in 538 BC. He also said that He would also restore the Davidic King to them in an eternal covenant, which He also did, in AD 30 (Acts 2:29-36/ 13:32-34/ Heb.13:20). Yes, Ezekiel was a prophet; and yes, Israel did return.

Crusader wrote: "I mean you got some issues here to deal with. But by saying we are in the Millenium...and Satans been bound..and most of Revelation has already happened preterists paint themselves into a prophecy corner that they cant get out of. Plus more and more is going to continually keep getting fulfilled before our eyes."

I don't know what you see in Ezekiel 37 that is relevant to the binding of Satan or the past fulfillment of Revelation, but I would enjoy hearing. It seems that you have little idea what preterists believe, and even less what amillennialists believe—but you love to advertise your ignorance on these subjects whenever you have the opportunity to post something, whether connected to your topic or not.

Please explain.

[Guest]

Crusader,
So you take a non-literal view of Ezekiel 37 that the Jews first having to come out of their graves before they return to their land.

Keep this in mind when you debate someone who is Amil and you are discussing Revelation 20 when it speaks about the first-resurrection. If you don't take it literal in Ezekiel 37, then why would you take it literally in Revelation 20? Just a thought.

It seems like you have put yourself in the corner by saying we have to take these passages literally, yet you have not taken the Ezekiel 37 passage literally.

In another thread you said:

....After 69 weeks Daniels prophecy came to a screeching halt at the birth of the Church....and the 70th week will begin when....when the times of the gentiles ends and the Bride leaves....and why...because as it says in Daniel 9 these seventy weeks are for your people and your city and arent for the Church.....Maranatha....

Looking for the Blessed hope

Crusader

And now you are saying:

So preterists are frozen in a static system by saying its been fulfilled,although there attempt to stop Gods prophetic clock from ticking only leads them to frustration when even trying to explain these few verses here.

I'm confused. Are you saying you believe God's prophetic clock stopped between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel or not?

You also said in another thread:

If you can read this in Ezekiel 37 where it plainly says Daivd will literally be in the land of Jerusalem after hed been dead for 400 years..there really isnt much I can say...

If Ezekiel is being fulfilled now, since 1948, literally in the land, then where is David?

[Guest]

Well Steve David had been dead for four hundred years when this was written....and yet he is going to be a prince among the people of Israel...How on earth is that possible? And what is meant by the new everlasting covenant?

Crusader