Jesus on: The Resurrection, John 11:25-26

[Paidion]

Rick, what verse 27 actually records Jesus as saying is as follows:

"He who lives and believes in me no way shall die into the age".

When I first became aware of this several years ago, I knew it could not mean "shall never die" since Jesus had just spoken of those who believe in Him and do die --- the ones who shall yet live (in the resurrection).

I think that in verse 27, by "the age", Jesus refers to the next age, and that he is saying that any living person who believes in him, though he may die, he won't stay dead. If he stayed dead, he would die right into the next age. But Jesus will come at the beginning of the next age. So such a believer will remain dead only until He comes. Then he will be raised from death.

I think both sentences are about the resurrection. The whole context is about the resurrection! It's not about continuing to live as an immortal soul or spirit.

[mikew]

I think both sentences are about the resurrection. The whole context is about the resurrection! It's not about continuing to live as an immortal soul or spirit.

So are you saying that our eternal life is interrupted for a period of time before the resurrection?

Also, I don't see where the words "the age" appear within John 11:24-27. Is there a translation that includes those words?

[RickC]

John 11 (RYLT)
11:24 Martha said to him, `I have known that he will rise again, in the rising again in the last day;' 11:25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live; 11:26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

Rick, what verse 26 actually records Jesus as saying is as follows:

"He who lives and believes in me no way shall die into the age".

I corrected your 27 {to verse 26, you meant},

You've omitted "and" at the beginning of the verse {which is significant, imo, as I elaborated on in my first post}.

While your rendering reveals a true statement, imo---in that resurrected persons "will in no way die after being resurrected"---I don't see where you're getting "no way" from the Greek. My Tyndale Interlinear has 26 And everyone living and believing in me never dies into the age."

When I first became aware of this several years ago, I knew it could not mean "shall never die" since Jesus had just spoken of those who believe in Him and do die --- the ones who shall yet live (in the resurrection).

Verse 25 speaks of those who may die, i.e., of death.
Verse 26 speaks of the resurrection of these dead, "and [who] shall [then] never die forever" {NET Bible}.

We've disagreed on the Greek aiwn {and derivatives}. As you know, I think it can mean "forever" {and I see no point going over any of that again, imo}. So, I'm with NET Bible on this one....

I think that in verse 26, by "the age", Jesus refers to the next age, and that he is saying that any living person who believes in him, though he may die, he won't stay dead. If he stayed dead, he would die right into the next age. But Jesus will come at the beginning of the next age. So such a believer will remain dead only until He comes. Then he will be raised from death.

I agree on the "won't stay dead" part.

But death isn't an activity people "do" after they die: {dead people aren't "deathing"}. When they die they're dead till the last day, as Martha said in 11:24.

The chronology I posted earlier: 1) a believer may die before the last day, 2) the said believer will live again (be resurrected}, 3) and won't die again forever...is all I think Jesus was saying. Simple statements.

I think both sentences are about the resurrection. The whole context is about the resurrection! It's not about continuing to live as an immortal soul or spirit.

Agreed: that Jesus said nothing about any intermediate state here.

However:
"Whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live
and whoever lives in no way 'deading' and is believing in me, into the age"....
This makes no sense and is too-too far from the Greek!

I think you've missed what Jesus {very simply} meant.
But we agree Jesus taught that, after the resurrection, believers won't die again.
Maybe we ought to leave it at that(?).
Thanks,

[RickC]

Mike,

Also, I don't see where the words "the age" appear within John 11:24-27. Is there a translation that includes those words?

The RYLT is currently under construction. Afaik, it's only online.

Biblegateway{dot}com has YLT {Young's Literal Translation, 1898}. It also reads "to the age." At other places in RYLT derivatives from aiwn "ai-own" is translated as "age-during" with the meaning of: age-enduring or during-the-[or an]-age.
Thanks,

[Paidion]

I don't see where you're getting "no way" from the Greek.

What do you think the double negative οὐ μη means?

In Abbott-Smith's Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, it is explained that οὐ μη "is an emphatic negation", that it's meaning is something like "not at all" or "by no means". I think that in modern parlance "no way" is the best way to express this "emphatic negation".

[RickC]

Hi Don,

I usually prefer a more literal translation with unneeded English words.
Why I liked NET's literal "will never die forever" {"never" is one word & quite emphatic}!

Possible Variations, less-literal, more "thought for thought"

26 and he who comes back to life and believes in me shall in no way die in the age to come.
26 and whoever then lives and believes in me will in no way die forever.
26 and anyone who lives again and believes in me will by no means ever die.

A Taking A Few More Liberties Paraphrase
26 and so, after anyone gets raised from the dead will they die again? Not!

Have a good day,

[Paidion]

26 and anyone who lives again and believes in me will by no means ever die.

A Taking A Few More Liberties Paraphrase
26 and so, after anyone gets raised from the dead will they die again? Not!

Rick, I was about to post a reply to suggest that we would simply have to disagree, and that your interpretation misses the point of what Jesus was saying, when I suddenly saw the reasoning in your intrerpetation. But then I realized that before I could embrace it, there would have to be a resolution of an apparent difficulty.

The two sentences you quote above as possible paraphrases appear to me to be inconsistent.
If Jesus meant as the more libertarian paraphase states that anyone who gets raised from the dead will not die again, then why did He in fact add the limiting phrase "and believes in me" (as in the first paraphrase above)? If Jesus was speaking of those who live after being raised from the dead, then the fact that of His adding this limiting phrase suggests that there will be some in the resurrection who do not believe in Him, and will, in fact, die again. However, I suppose that would be entirely consistent with the position of annihilist-amillenialism that the unbelievers will be raised along with the believers at Jesus coming, and that the "second death" which they will experience will be annihilation, and thus they will die again.

[RickC]

Don, a short post for now.

A Taking A Few More Liberties Paraphrase...{I missed "and believes in me"}
26 and so, after people who believe in me get raised from the dead will they die again? Not!

I've taken obvious liberites here, kind of like how like the Living Bible did: {no question is in Greek, etc., etc.}.

But thanks for your reply, hope to respond in more detail tomorrow,

[mikew]

Rick,

There are two problems that should be noted about your analysis.

The first is that in John 11:27 Martha appeared confused by the description of Jesus. If Jesus had simply described resurrection ( cause I think that's what you were saying), the normal response would be to acknowledge His definition. Instead Martha responded with an answer that just deferred to His authority, though "authority" isn't quite the right word. Her response indicated a lack of understanding of the words of Jesus rather than a confirmation that He was simply defining "resurrection."

The second thing is that Jesus showed in John 5:24 that believers pass from death into life --apparently at the time of coming to that belief. So the interpretation of John 11:25-26 should be done with an awareness of John 5:24. And this awareness I think would tend to point to my neutral analysis given before about John 11:25-26.

[RickC]

Hi Pmike & MikeW,

Thanks for your replies.
Quick note:
I'm not interested in discussing or debating {full or partial} preterism on this thread.
I'm not saying "no one can," just that I won't be. Anyways, Thanks,

I believe the Jews, Jesus, and the Apostles believed in a final bodily resurrection which would happen at the end of human history as we now know it. I stand by this conviction and, as I mentioned before, won't debate anyone about it on this thread, Thanks,