Is the Resurrection already past?

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Allyn
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Re: Is the Resurrection already past?

Post by Allyn » Wed May 19, 2010 3:32 pm

mattrose wrote:I think that whole chapter is quite clearly referring to physical/bodily resurrection (again, I hesitate to even use the words 'physical/body' and 'resurrection' consecutively since it is somewhat redundant.
The Apostle does not explain them as redundant.
mattrose wrote:15:1-11
Paul begins the chapter by saying that Christ was buried (obviously referring to his physical body). He then says Christ was raised 3 days later (again, obviously bodily). He appeared (obviously physically) to more than 500 people.
No argument here.
mattrose wrote:15:12-34
Paul argues that the fact of Jesus (bodily) resurrection points to the future (bodily) resurrection of the dead (those who have fallen asleep). Since Adam, we all die physically. But through Christ, we may be raised in like manner. Christ's physical resurrection was that of a firstfruits, implying that our resurrection will be in like manner. This future resurrection will occur only after 'death' has been finally defeated.
In verses 12-17
Paul's argument is simple: If Christ was raised from, or out of (Greek, ek), the dead (as was preached and they believed), then how could some of them say that there is no resurrection of the dead ones? In other words, if there is no resurrection of the dead ones, then not even Christ has been raised, because He was a dead one. Therefore, the opposite thought to this is that if Christ, being a dead one, was raised, which they believed He was, then the dead ones can be raised.

If there is no resurrection of the dead ones, then logic follows that Christ, being a dead one, was also not raised. If this were the case, then their preaching was in vain, their faith was in vain, and they were still in their sins.

But the fact remains that they did believe that Christ was raised from the dead ones, so Paul's argument is strong. The questions that arise are, who are the dead ones that the Corinthians didn't believe would be raised and why did they not believe that they would be raised?

Since the context of Christ's resurrection is within the range of Paul's thought, it is necessary to recognize that the dead ones refers to Old Covenant saints, prior to the resurrection of Christ. There is no New Covenant dead ones prior to the resurrection of Christ. With the resurrection of Jesus Christ came the establishment of the New Covenant. Thus, any saints after the resurrection of Christ would be New Covenant saints. So the problem that the Corinthians had was with the resurrection of the Old Covenant dead ones. Christ, of course, died under the terms of the Old Covenant, and was raised in order to establish the New Covenant.

What was the issue regarding the Old Covenant saints that the Corinthians were struggling with? Paul was teaching the Law-free Gospel. The Corinthians understood this. The problem had to do with the mixing of the Law with the Gospel. If the Old Covenant saints lived by the Law, then how could they be resurrected in Christ? But Paul taught that apart from Israel, there is no resurrection. The Law-free Gospel was preached to Israel and many of them believed. The problem was not with trying to obey the Law, for that was commanded by God. The problem was with placing their hopes in the Law. In fact, if those who obeyed the Law, but lived by the Gospel could not be resurrected, then neither could Gentiles be resurrected because Christ came to redeem the house of Israel. The Gospel is to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile.

After explaining to the Corinthians that if the dead are not raised, then they are still in their sins, he goes on to comment about those that had fallen asleep in Christ.

18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

Christ was the first fruits of those who were asleep. In Colossians 1:18, Paul puts it like this:
18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Christ Jesus was not the first person to rise from the visible earthly grave. He was, however, the first to be raised out of the dead ones. This goes to show that the resurrection that Paul is concerned with is not the resurrection of the biological corpse. It is the invisible body/soul that Paul is concerned with.

But didn't Christ rise from the grave in His biological corpse? Yes He did. That was made clear in the first part of 1 Corinthians 15. If Paul is concerned here with the invisible body/soul and not with the biological corpse, then why did Christ resurrect biologically?

The answer rests with another question: How else would Jesus demonstrate to people in the visible earthly realm that He did what He said He would do, namely, rise from the dead ones? The only biological body that the Bible promises would not see decay was Christ's. Peter says of David, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh suffer decay (Acts 2:31).

Jesus himself said to the pharisees' that no sign would be given except the sign of the prophet Jonah (Matthew 12:39-40). His resurrection of His body served as a sign of His resurrection from the dead.

Continuing on, in verse 18, the firstfruits that Paul talks about here is rooted in one of the feasts of Israel. The first crop of the barley harvest that was planted in the winter would begin to ripen in the spring. The firstfruits of the harvest is cut and in a carefully prescribed ceremony it is presented to the Lord. It consecrates the harvest.

Firstfruits represents the choicest of the choice. Once the first crop was ripe and was cut and presented to the LOrd, the rest would follow soon after. The rest of the barley or wheat did not take thousands of years to rise to ripeness. And in the next few verses Paul uses this feast to demonstrate the nearness of the end.
mattrose wrote:15:35-58
Paul clarifies the nature of the resurrection. He says specifically that there will be a transformation of the body. A perishable body will become an imperishable body. And so on and so forth. A body dominated by the flesh will become a body dominated by the Spirit. It could be no other way... corrupted humanity can't inherit the kingdom of God. There has to be transformation. Through Christ death will be once and for all defeated (never to occur again). Because of this future hope in (bodily) resurrection, our labor is not in vain.
The Apostle Paul begins his explanation with the seed analogy. A seed does not come to life into the body that it is designed to become unless it dies. There is a process of simultaneous dying and rising of a seed before it reaches its full potential. The seed does not die first and then immediately become full blown wheat. While it is dying the wheat is rising. It isn't until the seed has died completely that the wheat has risen completely. This is the way the seed works.

Now each type of seed has its own body. If you have a bag of seeds of the same type, those seeds have one collective body type. Paul is using the singular collective to show that each seed type has a different body, and that each of the individual seeds has the body of its collective type.

Paul goes on in the next couple of verses to demonstrate that everything in the visible realm has its own type of body. In the seed analogy, he shows that one seed has a certain body, another seed has a different body. But each seed type has a unique body into which all the seeds of that type are raised. It is the same with different types of flesh:

39All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.

40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

Each type of flesh is unique. The collective flesh of man is different than the collective flesh of beasts, which is also different than the collective flesh of birds and so on. But men have only one type of flesh while beasts, birds, and fish also have one type of flesh resectively.

Likewise, there are different bodies on earth than there are in space, which is what Paul means by heavenly bodies; he does not mean the invisible realm. This is clear from the fact that verse 40 is placed between verses 39 and 41 where Paul is distinguishing between types of bodies on earth and types of bodies in space. He is simply continuing his reasoning that even bodies in space have unique bodies and are different than the bodies on earth. And the glory of the bodies on earth are different than the glory of the bodies in space. They are not the same. But the glory of the heavenly is one type and the glory of the earthly is of another type. And even the bodies in space differ from one another in glory. Each body has its own unique glory. The glory of the sun is different than the glory of the moon. And each of the stars, much like each of the seeds, has its own type of glory.

In each of these illustrations, Paul demonstrates that while there are different types of seeds, flesh, and bodies, each individual seed, flesh or heavenly body has the same type or glory as its collective whole. So it is with the resurrection of the dead. They share in the same body as those who die in Christ, namely, the body of Adam. There is only one body type for mankind. Man is a body, and each individual is in the same collective body as the first man, Adam. Thus, just as Adam was a body of sin, so all who are in Adam have the same body of sin. Therefore, the dead must be raised into the same body of Christ. If we take everything Paul has said here, at the beginning of his explanation of the resurrection, as one unit, we can understand his following dying and rising motif of one body of Adam of verses 42-49:

42So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;

43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

45So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.

49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

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Re: Is the Resurrection already past?

Post by RICHinCHRIST » Wed May 19, 2010 3:48 pm

Allyn wrote:...It is the partial preterist who finds it neccessary to unnaturally breakup chapter 24 into two events separated by, now, 2000 years. A comma determining a lapse of thousands of years not even hinted at by Jesus Himself.
It would seem to me that Jesus actually did make that distinction.


Here, Jesus clearly says all these things (the things Jesus just previously mentioned) shall all take place before the generation passes away.


Now, Jesus introduces the concept of heaven and earth passing away, as distinct (in my opinion) from the previous things mentioned. If He wasn't making a distinction here, then why didn't He just say verse 34 at the end of the chapter instead? That would clearly have made the point the full-preterist is insisting upon.


It seems to me that Jesus is speaking about a different time period here. He just made quite a prophetic statement about the destruction of Jerusalem. However, Jesus is now being careful to even put a date on the events following verse 34. Other manuscripts (the alexandrian texts, I believe) include that not even the Son of man knows. This point is already made (in the textus receptus), however, since Jesus says only the Father knows.

Now, wouldn't it be strange for Jesus to have pinpointed and predicted a small gap of time for the destruction of the temple, but yet make the kind of statement He does in verse 36? Why would He make such a radical prediction, but yet then hesitate and say that He has no idea about when "the heavens and earth will pass away"? If this all the same event, it seems that Jesus would know alot more about it than He actually says He does in verse 35.

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Re: Is the Resurrection already past?

Post by mattrose » Wed May 19, 2010 3:50 pm

EDIT... Oops, Rich must have been posting same time as me. I don't mean to repeat :)
it is obvious to the preterist that there is a tight sequence of events being shown to the 4 disciples after their querry to Jesus on the Mount of Olives. It is the partial preterist who finds it neccessary to unnaturally breakup chapter 24 into two events separated by, now, 2000 years. A comma determining a lapse of thousands of years not even hinted at by Jesus Himself.
To me it is hyper-preterist to insist that all of Matthew 24-25 speak of 1st century events. You claim that it is unnatural and arbitrary to see a break in subject matter at some point in Matthew's section, but I think a very solid case can be made for a subject change.

1. Matthew has a habit of placing similarly themed teachings of Jesus together. We have a collection of ethical sayings in Matthew 5-7. We have a collection of kingdom parables in Matthew 13. It is quite possible that here we have a collection of judgment sayings. It is unnecessary to insist that Matthew couldn't have combined 2 separate judgment messages together. It is actually quite plausible. The objection that the language b/w the two is too similar falls short since the judgment genre throughout Scripture uses common motifs.

2. There is a natural break in the section. 24:34 says that all this (referring to the signs just mentioned) will occur in that generation). 24:35 widens the parameters to heaven and earth. 24:36 picks up on that thought to talk about 'that' day (rather than what was coming upon 'this' generation). Jesus was telling them when judgment on Jerusalem would come, but nobody knew when worldwide judgment would come.

3. We have several thematic changes that give evidence that a subject change has occurred. In general, 'this' gives way to 'that' & 'days' gives way to 'day'. The idea of signs to bring warning gives way to utter surprise. The idea of soon coming judgment gives way to long time spans.

4. Your suggestion that a comma is the only thing suggesting a long time gap is baseless. The subject matter of 24:35 forward itself suggests a time gap. The master was staying away a long time (24:48). The bridegroom was a long time in coming (25:5). Another master returned after a long time (25:19).

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Re: Is the Resurrection already past?

Post by steve » Wed May 19, 2010 3:59 pm

[I was apparently posting at the same time as Rich and Matt, and have not yet had a chance to read their most recent posts. I am here responding to the last post by Allyn on page one of this thread.]

I can easily see that Jesus predicts events that will occur within the generation of the apostles. He speaks of a trumpet and of angels. This I recognize to be a reference to AD70.

The collating of the majority of Daniel's visions with specific New Testament passages is controversial and tenuous. There are more ways to interpret the details in Daniel than there are ways to interpret the New Testament passages under consideration.

I have never seen anywhere that Paul refers to a first-century fulfillment of anything he predicted (with the probable exception of his own death—2 Tim.4:6).

As trumpets and angels are not uncommon phenomena in apocalyptic passages about divine judgment,* I see no reason to equate these first-century events with those which Paul describes. To run all trumpet and angel passages together into a single event, regardless of the differences in contexts and in the described results, is an example of the woodenness of interpretation of which I spoke in my previous post. Paul certainly describes one event in two passages— 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. In the former, he speaks of a trumpet, which he calls the "last trumpet." The word "last" would seem redundant and misleading if there are not more than one trumpet events anticipated by Christians. 1 Thessalonians 4:6 mentions the voice of an archangel. Both of Paul's passages make a distinction between the dead and the living at the time of Christ's coming. Both will rise and be changed into immortals. This did not happen in AD70. If these changes are spiritual, then they would seem to have occurred to individuals at the time of their conversion—not en masse in AD70.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus does not even mention or allude to the resurrection of the dead, though these events are at the center of Paul's concern in his passages. Jesus describes disaster, persecution and mourning; Paul describes resurrection and glorification. Unlike Paul, Jesus mentions neither an archangel nor the voice of an archangel—only the activity of "angels." Jesus mentions the sound of "a trumpet," with no hint of that trumpet being uniquely "the last trumpet," of which Paul spoke. The similarities between Jesus words in the Olivet Discourse, and Paul's second-coming predictions are minimal and general. When you come to the specifics of the various passages, they have almost nothing in common with each other.

To conflate all of these passages into one event, because of inconsequential similarities, but at the expense of their monumental differences, without consideration of their stated aims and contexts, seems like a poor hermeneutic procedure to me.

---------

* For references to trumpets and voices like trumpets, see, e.g., Ps. 47:5; Isa. 18:3; 27:13; 58:1; Jer. 4:5, 19, 21; Hos. 8:1; Joel 2:1, 15; Amos 2:2; 3:6; Zeph. 1:16; Zech. 9:14; Rev 8:13; etc.

For angels involved in God's judgments, see, e.g., Ex. 33:2; Num 20:16; 2 Sam. 24:16; 1 Chron. 21:15; 2 Chron. 32:21; Ps.35:5-6; Isa 37:36; Ezek.9:2-6; Acts 12:23; etc.

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Re: Is the Resurrection already past?

Post by Conquest » Wed May 19, 2010 8:41 pm

Allyn wrote:
mattrose wrote:I think that whole chapter is quite clearly referring to physical/bodily resurrection (again, I hesitate to even use the words 'physical/body' and 'resurrection' consecutively since it is somewhat redundant.
The Apostle does not explain them as redundant.
To be fair, isn't Matt indicating the terms "physical" and "body" are redundant. Paul didn't use the term "physical" to describe the human body, although he did use the term of "soulish" to describe a human body that still has the old self with which to contend. The term "soulish" would not be a commentary of the "physical" nature of the body. It would seem you are approaching the text with a viewpoint that wasn't documented until late in the second century, a viewpoint which seems to presuppose the human body can be something other than "physical" or "material" not to be redundant.

Conquest

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Re: Is the Resurrection already past?

Post by SteveF » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:12 pm

RICHinCHRIST wrote:Great points, Matt.
Allyn wrote:Thanks matt,
From this point on, if we continue here, lets both bring in some Scripture to make our argument. It would be good for others to see our views expressed through Scripture.

The Sadduccees, who said there was no resurrection, were obviously referring to a physical resurrection. Here would be a great time for Jesus to have said that the resurrection was spiritual. However, He does not say that, and rather He points out that there is no marriage in the resurrection. If the resurrection happened in AD70, then why isn't everyone celibate and unmarried? That is one of the key aspects of the resurrection according to Jesus. We're also not "like" the angels in heaven any more than the humans before AD70 were (as far as we know).


Here Paul refers to the resurrection as a future thing. Now, the full preterist might say, "it refers to the future at AD70". But how does the resurrection full-preterism defines different than the spiritual resurrection which had already happened to many saved individuals at this point? Many people experienced the "spiritual resurrection" (John 5:24-25) at this point in time. But Paul seems to be referring to a different "resurrection" still future. Not only that, the wicked will be resurrected too... so how does that work for the full preterist? Have the wicked also been spiritually resurrected?
Does any Full Preterist have an answer to Rich's points? I think I remember Steve7150 raising the same scriptures a long time ago but they were left unanswered then as well.

Thanks
Steve

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Re: Is the Resurrection already past?

Post by Allyn » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:24 pm

RICHinCHRIST wrote:The Sadduccees, who said there was no resurrection, were obviously referring to a physical resurrection. Here would be a great time for Jesus to have said that the resurrection was spiritual. However, He does not say that, and rather He points out that there is no marriage in the resurrection. If the resurrection happened in AD70, then why isn't everyone celibate and unmarried? That is one of the key aspects of the resurrection according to Jesus. We're also not "like" the angels in heaven any more than the humans before AD70 were (as far as we know).
This is a strange comment for me to take in, Rich. If the resurrection of the dead involves the dead then how is it you come to think it would require celibacy from AD 70 onward? The resurrection spoken of in this passage is the one all Israel looked to as the hope of Israel. Only Israel participated in it and you had to be already dead to qualify. Do you see the resurrection as something different than an actual raising from the dead?



RICHinCHRIST wrote:Here Paul refers to the resurrection as a future thing. Now, the full preterist might say, "it refers to the future at AD70". But how does the resurrection full-preterism defines different than the spiritual resurrection which had already happened to many saved individuals at this point? Many people experienced the "spiritual resurrection" (John 5:24-25) at this point in time. But Paul seems to be referring to a different "resurrection" still future. Not only that, the wicked will be resurrected too... so how does that work for the full preterist? Have the wicked also been spiritually resurrected?
The spiritual resurrection is one's participation in the kingdom of God. It is the same as described in Romans 6-8 in which a believer has a death, burial and resurrection in the likeness of Christ's. He did it physically and the believer does it in Baptism. However the kingdom of God was not yet fully in and would not be until Jesus came again in the glory of His kingdom with all His holy angels. Your use of Acts 24:15 is incorrect in that Paul is referring to the actual dead being raised at the end of the age. Daniel was given a prophecy concerning his people and their resurrection. We find this in Daniel 12 and it describes a time future to Daniel but no further than the end of those days Jesus pointed out as being the time of the end (Mat 24:14). Jesus also confirmed the prophecy of Daniel by associating His second coming with Daniels prophecy as being the same time when those people of Daniel would be raised.(Dan. 12:13)

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Re: Is the Resurrection already past?

Post by Mellontes » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:52 am

steve wrote:I can easily see that Jesus predicts events that will occur within the generation of the apostles. He speaks of a trumpet and of angels. This I recognize to be a reference to AD70.
Even 1 Thessalonian 4:16?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
steve wrote:I have never seen anywhere that Paul refers to a first-century fulfillment of anything he predicted (with the probable exception of his own death—2 Tim.4:6).
Not even 1 Thessalonians 4:15?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that the "we" from the bolded and underlined portion includes the "we" three words in from the beginning of this verse. I also will say that the "we" is first distinguished as being the individuals from 1 Thessalonians 1:1 - Paul, Silvanus and Timothy:

1 Thessalonians 1:1 - Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I am also going to say that the "we" from that bolded and underlined portion from 1 Thesalonians 4:15 includes an unknown amount (but an amount nonetheless) of believers from that Thessalonian church. I especially wish that notice would be given that this group would be 1) ALIVE and 2) REMAIN "unto the coming of the Lord."

If that isn't first century relevance then nothing is...it also eliminates any physical rapture from off of the planet theory since they would "remain" unto the coming of the Lord.

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Re: Is the Resurrection already past?

Post by TK » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:14 am

mellontes wrote:
1 Thessalonians 4:15 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that the "we" from the bolded and underlined portion includes the "we" three words in from the beginning of this verse.
I dont this this necessarily follows at all. of course, i don't know greek or anything. I say this because Paul did not know when the coming of the Lord would be, so he had to be using a "we" that included future Christians as well.

TK

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Re: Is the Resurrection already past?

Post by Mellontes » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:28 pm

TK wrote:mellontes wrote:
1 Thessalonians 4:15 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that the "we" from the bolded and underlined portion includes the "we" three words in from the beginning of this verse.
I dont this this necessarily follows at all. of course, i don't know greek or anything. I say this because Paul did not know when the coming of the Lord would be, so he had to be using a "we" that included future Christians as well.

TK
TK,
I think you are expressing suppositions here. Why wouldn't Paul know when the coming of the Lord would be? He would be well aware of what Jesus said regarding the timing within that first century generation. Now, I realize there is all sorts of argumentation that "generation" did not mean that generation, and such, but it seems pretty clear to me if we can just put our indoctrinations behind us. I am not trying to be rude. It is just what has to be done. Paul was writing to that Thessalonian church. The recipients of that church would understand what he was saying to THEM. Paul, Sylvanus, Timothy and people from the Thessalonian church would constitute the we, otherwise it has ZERO application for the intended audience. Futurism takes away all possible interpretation by the hearers of the message brought to them. We must understand what the original interpretation was to the group of people who received the letter BEFORE we start seeing if any of it applies to us.

And there might be another tiny little matter of John 16:13:

John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I have used this following example before and I will try to be brief as possible...continuing with the Thessalonian audience:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 - Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

Who were troubling these 1st century Thessalonians? The answer is given to us in 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15:

1 Thessalonians 2:14-15 – For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Without question, it is the unbelieving old covenant Jews who were persecuting the Thessalonian church.

Now, Paul says something VERY encouraging to that 1st century church. He tells THEM that relief from this persecution is coming. At least that is what I would have thought if I was in that church when Paul’s letter came and it was read to us:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 – And to you who are troubled rest with us…

The “you who are troubled” refers to that Thessalonian church. Paul promised them “rest” from their troubles. I think that much we can agree. However, it is the WHEN that seems to cause all the problems. This is when Paul said the rest would come.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 –…, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I have not seen a single commentary anywhere that does not refer to this particular section of Scripture (and the following few verses) as referring to the final parousia event. Of course, the vast majority of them say this is an event to yet occur in our future, but Paul says something entirely different. The point being is who are we going to believe? Will it be Paul or will it be some commentary? That is the whole issue. This is preterism.

Another thing that is slightly off is the fact of the Jewish persecution of the church. When I was a futurist, it never was expressed that way at all. It was always the world against the Christians, then the world against the Jews. That does not match in the least with Scripture. That is why the judgment against the unbelieving Jews is either dismissed or minimized...

Something to think about, perhaps?
Last edited by Mellontes on Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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