Question in 2 Thess 2:1-2 "Gathering together to Him.&q

[Guest]

I must say that I am weary and kind of find it suspect when someone feels the need to make statements like...Well it COULD mean this. The only reason people make statements like this is because the plain meaning of a statement doesn't fit within the pale of their view.

I understand your sentiment. However, it's not without precedent. If you're of the preterist perspective at all, you probably accept the alternate reading of Daniel 9:27, simply because it's possible and does a lot better job making sense of the eschatology.

For partial preterists who see much of prophecy fulfilled in AD 70, but also the references to the second coming as future (for some good reasons), this passage in 2 Thess. is pretty much the only major obstacle*. If it's the only major problem passage (I realize that that statement won't go unchallenged, but...) then it makes sense to analyze the Greek there for all the possibilities.

How would the coming of the Lord some thousands of years off in the future give those living in the first century any kind of relief from the very real persecution from which they were suffering?

Again, I do feel the force of this reasoning as well, and have some agreement with it, but the fact is that Chrsitians have gained tremendous relief from these passages in the midst of suffering for thousands of years. And of course, , other than possibly Rev. 20 there is nothing in the NT indicating that the coming had to wait thousands of years. It's imminence made it a subject of hope. (gee, I'm practically sounding like a futurist now!)


* It appears to be the only passage that unambigiously states that the return of Christ is synonymous with the events of AD 70.

[Guest]

So you admit that the whole of creation no longer is in bondage to decay? And there is no more death morning crying or pain? There is not more curse? No more thorns an thistles?

Thats right baby...Because we have in the New Covenant today what they did not have back then under the Old Covenant. In Christ WE are a NEW CREATION...OLD THINGS have PASSED AWAY...ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN MADE NEW. For those who are IN CHRIST they are no longer under that OLD ministration of DEATH. Those who accepted Christ as their Messiah have been made alive. To be made alive they had to have been dead. Paul said it himself. You who were ONCE DEAD have been now MADE ALIVE!!! Was he talking to people that had been physically dead...NO...It was SPIRITUAL DEATH...Separation from God.

The day you eat of this fruit you will surely die...DID ADAM AND EVE DIE THAT DAY? Of course not. Was God wrong? Of course not. It wasn't physical death but it was death none the less.

Adam and Eve had a face to face relationship with God in the garden. But because of their sin He turned His face away from them. But because of the blood of Christ the veil that once separated God from man has been torn down and we are now once again in fellowship with God through the Holy Spirit. The relationship has been restored...The death that Adam died that day in the garden along with the curses has been over turned.

Pmike

[Guest]

So you admit that the whole of creation no longer is in bondage to decay? And there is no more death morning crying or pain? There is not more curse? No more thorns an thistles?

Thats right baby...Because we have in the New Covenant today what they did not have back then under the Old Covenant. In Christ WE are a NEW CREATION...OLD THINGS have PASSED AWAY...ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN MADE NEW. For those who are IN CHRIST they are no longer under that OLD ministration of DEATH. Those who accepted Christ as their Messiah have been made alive. To be made alive they had to have been dead. Paul said it himself. You who were ONCE DEAD have been now MADE ALIVE!!! Was he talking to people that had been physically dead...NO...It was SPIRITUAL DEATH...Separation from God.

The day you eat of this fruit you will surely die...DID ADAM AND EVE DIE THAT DAY? Of course not. Was God wrong? Of course not. It wasn't physical death but it was death none the less.

Adam and Eve had a face to face relationship with God in the garden. But because of their sin He turned His face away from them. But because of the blood of Christ the veil that once separated God from man has been torn down and we are now once again in fellowship with God through the Holy Spirit. The relationship has been restored...The death that Adam died that day in the garden along with the curses has been over turned.

Pmike

Maybe you should read the apostle Paul again. The same Paul who said that "in Christ we are a new creation" said:

Rom 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

For some reason full preterists don't like to take all the eschatological passages literally. According to Paul, were still waitin', till the final enemy is defeated, death! If there is still death, then we still eagerly wait for it to be defeated.

As far as Adam and Eve go, we need not wonder what kind of death it is referring to:

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

That very day God cut them off from the tree of live, so they would not live forever. Physical death was the result. No mention of "spiritual death".

[Guest]

For some reason full preterists don't like to take all the eschatological passages literally. According to Paul, were still waitin', till the final enemy is defeated, death! If there is still death, then we still eagerly wait for it to be defeated.

Lest you forget that there inheritance was heavenly. Not Earthly...

1 Peter 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

As far as Adam and Eve go, we need not wonder what kind of death it is referring to:

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

That very day God cut them off from the tree of live, so they would not live forever. Physical death was the result. No mention of "spiritual death".

It is so plain that it is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU...Death was there all along even before the fall. Eternal life was conditional based on the fruit. Can't you see. If they would have still had access to the tree, "And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." It was not built in...It was conditional. They could have lived forever AFTER the curse.

Tell you what...Here's a challenge. Show me in the Bible where it says that Adam and Eve were immortal before the fall.

And I mean this in the most loving and graceful kind of way...But if you can't see that then you don't have eyes to see.

Pmike

[Guest]

Lest you forget that there inheritance was heavenly. Not Earthly...

1 Peter 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

Yes, it's reserved in heaven, but until when? Does Revelation tell us? Does something come out of heaven to earth?

Also, will these promises ever come true? Or should we cross them out and write "heaven" there instead?

Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.

Romans 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

It is so plain that it is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU...Death was there all along even before the fall. Eternal life was conditional based on the fruit. Can't you see. If they would have still had access to the tree, "And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." It was not built in...It was conditional. They could have lived forever AFTER the curse.

I'm not sure I said otherwise. The wages of sin is death. They sin, they die.

Tell you what...Here's a challenge. Show me in the Bible where it says that Adam and Eve were immortal before the fall.

God alone has immortality. My point was to show that without the tree of life they were condemned to death, as in "the wages of sin is death". Not only that, God pronounced a curse, that is still in effect. Unless you say it's not in effect in heaven. But the curse was never on heaven, was it?

And I mean this in the most loving and graceful kind of way...But if you can't see that then you don't have eyes to see.

Pmike

Maybe I am blind. Or maybe I still see the passages you don't. Those pesky passages about no more curse on the land. No more death, crying or pain. I still see those. They haven't gone away.

[Guest]

Lest you forget that there inheritance was heavenly. Not Earthly...

1 Peter 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

Yes, it's reserved in heaven, but until when? Does Revelation tell us? Does something come out of heaven to earth?

Also, will these promises ever come true? Or should we cross them out and write "heaven" there instead?

Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.

Romans 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Don't forget Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.<====(((NEW JERUSALEM)

Sean...Even I would like to live on an earth that in some sense is, what we would imagine as "The garden that is in the east of Eden," in nature. But there is nothing in the Bible that says that the earth ever was Edenic in nature. And we shouldn't look at these verses and simply throw our hands up in the air and take sides. The fact of the matter is that yes...Matt 5 and Romans 4 do say that there is a land inheritance. But the authors of the book of 1 Peter and Hebrews clarify, or further explain that it was never about physical land, but that it was something greater...something eternal...something Heavenly. These passages don't disagree.

Kind of like this. You and I have eternal life. Jesus said it Himself in John 11:26 "whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." Yet you and I are gonna die. So do you and I pick sides and duke it out??? No...both true, but one reality is earthly and one is heavenly...One is temporal and the other eternal. Both are true, both are real.

The Jews of the first century thought that there Messiah was going to be an earthly king. One that would rule from a throne in Jerusalem. But He said it himself, "My kingdom is NOT of THIS WORLD." Matter of fact when they tried to grab Him and make Him king He fled. Heaven is His throne and the earth is His footstool. Sounds to me like reigning with Christ is a heavenly matter.

The Old Covenant was external and temporal and the New Covenant is internal and eternal. And once the Old Covenant completely faded away having been replaced by the New...there was no more place for the Old...And there never will be.

(Caution: Low Blow Ahead) I dunno...I just sounds like a lot of what you believe is based on very carnal futuristic assumptions.

Pmike

[Guest]

If you read this straight through, without stopping at the chapter division, it seems to be speaking of the same coming, the time of our glorification with Christ at his second coming.

I see where you're going there. That's what I was thinking also... but. It seems if you continue to read, he's saying the lawless one will be brought to an end at His coming.

I guess I thought the lawless one lived in the first century.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I know what I see...2 Thess 2:5-7 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

The lawless one was alive and being restrained when Paul wrote this letter. Wow...Never really saw that before. So what is this lawless one?

Pmike

[Guest]

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

The lawless one was alive and being restrained when Paul wrote this letter. Wow...Never really saw that before. So what is this lawless one?

The text doesn't say that the lawless one was already at work in Paul's time. What it clearly states that the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. What restrained lawlessness at that time was government. And it is government that continued to restrain it ---- and still restrains it. But just prior to the coming of Christ, government will be "taken out of the way" (literally "until it becomes out of the midst"). When government ceases to function, when it is out of the way, lawlessness will be unrestrained, and will rapidly increase ---- until Christ comes and conquers his enemies.

[Guest]

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

The lawless one was alive and being restrained when Paul wrote this letter. Wow...Never really saw that before. So what is this lawless one?

The text doesn't say that the lawless one was already at work in Paul's time. What it clearly states that the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. What restrained lawlessness at that time was government. And it is government that continued to restrain it ---- and still restrains it. But just prior to the coming of Christ, government will be "taken out of the way" (literally "until it becomes out of the midst"). When government ceases to function, when it is out of the way, lawlessness will be unrestrained, and will rapidly increase ---- until Christ comes and conquers his enemies.

But you see...By your own definition this happened in the first century as well.

1. Rome restrained lawlessness...Pax Romana.

2. Roman governance taken out of the way. A.D. 66 The Zealots take control of the Temple...The Temple falls under the control of the revolutionaries.

3. When government ceases to function, when it is out of the way, lawlessness will be unrestrained, and will rapidly increase...READ JOSEPHUS...WAR OF THE JEWS!!!

4. Until Christ comes and conquers his enemies. Nahum 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked.The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.

Malachi 4:2-3 “ That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name, The Sun of Righteousness shall arise, With healing in His wings, And you shall go out, And grow fat like stall-fed calves. You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet, On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Zechariah 14:1-4 ...Behold, the day of the LORD is coming...For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem.

And so I stand with Steve Gregg on this one. I don't see any O.T. prophecies that need yet be fulfilled.

Rome was restraining lawlessness until the zealots decided to throw off the yoke and quit paying tribute. They closed off the city(Jerusalem) and lawlessness increased so much that the Roman armies just sat back and watched as the infighting did the work for them. Finally the Roman armies went in and squashed the rebellion and left not one stone standing upon another fulfilling Christ own words.

Over and over again throughout the O.T. God used one nation to conquer another but took credit for it Himself...See Lamentations. What happened in AD 70 is no different than that which had happened over and over and over again throughout the pages of our Bible.

Plain and simple Pai...You can't prove that what happened in the fall of Jerusalem wasn't fulfilling this. And considering the time statments...70AD fits much better.

Pmike

[Guest]

Lest you forget that there inheritance was heavenly. Not Earthly...

1 Peter 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

Yes, it's reserved in heaven, but until when? Does Revelation tell us? Does something come out of heaven to earth?

Also, will these promises ever come true? Or should we cross them out and write "heaven" there instead?

Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.

Romans 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Don't forget Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.<====(((NEW JERUSALEM)

Sean...Even I would like to live on an earth that in some sense is, what we would imagine as "The garden that is in the east of Eden," in nature. But there is nothing in the Bible that says that the earth ever was Edenic in nature. And we shouldn't look at these verses and simply throw our hands up in the air and take sides. The fact of the matter is that yes...Matt 5 and Romans 4 do say that there is a land inheritance. But the authors of the book of 1 Peter and Hebrews clarify, or further explain that it was never about physical land, but that it was something greater...something eternal...something Heavenly. These passages don't disagree.

Kind of like this. You and I have eternal life. Jesus said it Himself in John 11:26 "whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." Yet you and I are gonna die. So do you and I pick sides and duke it out??? No...both true, but one reality is earthly and one is heavenly...One is temporal and the other eternal. Both are true, both are real.

The Jews of the first century thought that there Messiah was going to be an earthly king. One that would rule from a throne in Jerusalem. But He said it himself, "My kingdom is NOT of THIS WORLD." Matter of fact when they tried to grab Him and make Him king He fled. Heaven is His throne and the earth is His footstool. Sounds to me like reigning with Christ is a heavenly matter.

The Old Covenant was external and temporal and the New Covenant is internal and eternal. And once the Old Covenant completely faded away having been replaced by the New...there was no more place for the Old...And there never will be.

(Caution: Low Blow Ahead) I dunno...I just sounds like a lot of what you believe is based on very carnal futuristic assumptions.

Pmike

So the meek will not inherit the earth, nor will Abraham's seed inherit it. Nor will heavenly Jerusalem ever come down for heaven. Instead, it's only heavenly. I think you are confusing the current situation and forgetting about the future one. Especially if this world continues on as it is, if that is the case, it is the wicked to get the earth, and death still reigns. Sounds great!