Moyers: Hagee, CUFI, and an interview

[Guest]

A thought:

From my terribly limited experience of fellow brothers and sisters in Christ that I've met and interacted with, I've found your average American evangelical a dispensationalist, but only because they've not heard that there are other options. Opportunities to give alternative explanations to dispensationalism come up from time to time in conversation, and I find that the more that someone knows me, the more they are willing to listen.

However, I'm often "turned off" to those whose sole purpose in life is to convince me to be a Calvinist or Arminian, Catholic or non-catholic, or <fill>. Some of these issues are important, but are not worth damaging relationships in the body of Christ if it can be helped. I don't want to be that person who's always got their amillenial guns blazing when I'm with other Christians. I think its more important to love others despite the fact that I disagree with them.

Dispensationalism is a load of bad ideas, but what is really bad for the church is those who claim to be Christians but do not love and obey Jesus.

John 15:17 This I command you - to love one another.

What do you think?

Dave

[Guest]

i agree with you, dave, which is why i find myself biting my tongue fairly often. to me, most things arent worth fighting over. i have had several discussions with christian friends regarding alternatives to "left behind" eschatology- I dont try to convince them, but rather lay out a quick case and basically let them know that there are other viable options. like you said, most people dont realize there ARE other possibilities that fit scripture quite well.

TK

[Guest]

Dave and TK,

I pretty much have the same approach as both of you. I know how shocked I was when I heard the different views the first time. I was browsing through Hank Hanegraaff's program archives and saw the subject "Revelation: 4 Views". Although eschatology was not one of my primary theological concerns, I decided to listen because I always like hearing different points of view.

Anyway, when I heard Steve Gregg on Hanks program I was taken aback. I had never heard any of this before. Even though I'm the type of person who likes to be open to different ideas, it took me a while to digest this new train of thought. I try to remember how unusual it sounded to me anytime I'm talking with someone else.

TK, I find myself biting my tongue as well. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of "tongue biters" on this forum.

[Guest]

Agreed, although sometimes (as in a recent case here with a certain Catholic), my teeth lose their grip on my tongue.

Yesterday I was leading a Bible study on John 1:1-18. We looked at the various words John applied to Jesus: Logos, Light, Truth, Grace, etc. As we concluded, I asked if anyone had any other questions. One of the guys raised his hand and asked, "So, what does 666 mean?" Someone else said, "Yeah, and who is the Beast in Revelation?"

I just thought it was humorous that all through this (what I thought was a) profound Bible study, these new believers really wanted to discuss the End-Times. The only thing they had ever heard was the Left Behind view.

I did a poor Steve Gregg impression and tried to explain all 4 views to them. I have a feeling it's going to be a while before we can get back to John's Gospel.

[Guest]

Steve F,

You might want to check out the British "Channel 4" documentary The Doomsday Code. It deals primarily with how people interpret end time prophecy and the political/social implications. The host, Tony Robinson, also hosted a "Channel 4" program that debunked the Da Vinci Code.

Thanks anyway. But my computer can't watch videos (it's too old). I keep up with all the latest stuff 'coming out' and manage to find audio when need be. Of all theological topics, I probably know eschatology the best, having studied it more than others. I appreciate the link anyway, though.

Danny,

1. I think one of the best forms of social action to counter this hyper-dispensationalism/Christian Zionism is through the use of media such as the Internet, like you said. I too have had some uncomfortable dialogs with friends on the topic. Some have changed their views as a result. Others haven't.

2. BTW, another great book, which I have given to dispi friends, is "Light Force" by Brother Andrew. He has Evangelical credibility because of "God's Smuggler" and he deals with the subject of supporting the Palestinian church in a very gentle and winsome manner, based primarily on personal anecdotes.

1. a. I debated a "pre-trib" Baptist guy at Beliefnet on & off for about 2 years. He was unconvinced but I'm sure there were 'lurkers' reading my posts. b. In Paltalk Messenger I often went to TTP (The Theology Program) till my puter got too old for it also...Anyway, the head of TTP, C. Michael Patton, once gave me the mic and said, "It's all yours! Tell us why we should be Amillennial." I took about 10 minutes...and from what I understand, some of those folks are reconsidering.

2. Yes! Not real long ago I heard Brother Andrew on...you guess..."Hank" (where I first heard and heard of Steve too). I don't know what Brother Andrew's eschatology is. But I do know that there are (even) some dispensationalists who are "seeing through" to the real issues. It seems I read that there is a premillennialist group somewhere in the Middle East (Palestine or Israel) who have "left behind" their official eschatology in order to DO the other theology such as: Blessed are the peacemakers.

I may get Brother Andrew's book, read it myself, and give it to one or more of my family members. But the problem with them is their theology. In times past I've tried to explain eschatology but...they don't appear able to grasp it. I can't tell if it's their presuppositions are so strong, if they lack intellectually ability, or both (not saying they are stupid but...well, they don't understand and don't seem able to)....

Also, and this is important. What we need is a comprehensive view to where not just the Palestinian Christians need support: the Israeli Christians too. (Brother Andrew speaks of them some also, I know). Of course, this is what the Bible teaches but I rarely find a truly objective view about this being said by anyone....

I did a poor Steve Gregg impression and tried to explain all 4 views to them. I have a feeling it's going to be a while before we can get back to John's Gospel.

GREAT job brother! Every little bit helps,

Note: In my town certain churches "swap preachers" once a year. The pastorof the local Church of God, Anderson, Indiana came to my Mom's church. I missed it. But she said, "Rick, he told us they were amillennial, like you. He was pretty interesting." Mom's not an amillennialist yet...but every little bit helps.

Btw, 666 was Nero.

All,
Re: 'They've never heard anything but 'Left Behind'
I was once like that myself. So it appears we are all called to be teachers, imo, Amen.
Rick

[Guest]

Dave,

Some of these issues are important, but are not worth damaging relationships in the body of Christ if it can be helped. I don't want to be that person who's always got their amillenial guns blazing when I'm with other Christians. I think its more important to love others despite the fact that I disagree with them.

Dispensationalism is a load of bad ideas, but what is really bad for the church is those who claim to be Christians but do not love and obey Jesus.

John 15:17 This I command you - to love one another.

What do you think?

I think that when I tell a relative I may send a little money to help Palestinian Christians in Ramallah...and they give me a "bad look"....
I wonder if they are in the Body of Christ.

I ask every Christian I get to know what their eschatology is, one of the first things I ask them. And if what the Bible says is "amillennial guns"...I tote em all the time! But as an ex-dispensationalist myself; I know that it is going to take tact and some serious consideration of the Scriptures. If and when any Christian doesn't want to know other views...I sort of just say "Hi" and shake their hand, etc. (remain polite). But I don't make it a point to fellowship with them coz they've shown they don't really want that.

As long as I remain friendly, it is up to them if they want to look at the Bible or not at a later time. Everyone who knows me much at all knows I study the Bible & theology every day and always want to talk about it....
So it's up to them.
Anyways,
Rick

[Guest]

rick wrote:

As long as I remain friendly, it is up to them if they want to look at the Bible or not at a later time. Everyone who knows me much at all knows I study the Bible & theology every day and always want to talk about it....

its very frustrating how few fellow christians show any interest in delving deeper into the scriptures. if you bring up novel ideas to them (that fascinate me) they give you that "that's nice" look but you know they have no interest. thank goodness for this forum.

TK

[Guest]

Thanks for those links, Rick. I believe Dispensationalism and in paticular Christian Zionism is out of control and could very well influence politics in a detremental way (it is already). I strongly believe this movement is about as heretical as one can get so talk about wolves in sheeps clothing

[Guest]

Yesterday I was leading a Bible study on John 1:1-18. We looked at the various words John applied to Jesus: Logos, Light, Truth, Grace, etc. As we concluded, I asked if anyone had any other questions. One of the guys raised his hand and asked, "So, what does 666 mean?" Someone else said, "Yeah, and who is the Beast in Revelation?"

I just thought it was humorous that all through this (what I thought was a) profound Bible study, these new believers really wanted to discuss the End-Times. The only thing they had ever heard was the Left Behind view.

As funny as this story is, it leads to what I'm concerned about. Our culture of Christianity raises the importance of eschatology around the same level as knowing and obeying Jesus (perhaps in some cases even higher).


For a few days on the Narrow Path radio program, Steve had a guy call in (dispensationalist) who seemed very committed to convincing Steve of his particular eschatological bent. There wasn't much "meat" to this caller's arguments, and after the 3 or 4th call, Steve ran out of patience and asked the caller "What bearing does our eschatology matter in our day-to-day life in Jesus?" The caller was convinced that there were huge ramifications, but couldn't think of one.

How do we steer people away from the academic eschatological debates back to a focus on Jesus?

If and when any Christian doesn't want to know other views...I sort of just say "Hi" and shake their hand, etc. (remain polite). But I don't make it a point to fellowship with them coz they've shown they don't really want that.

Forgive me if I misunderstand, but are you saying that you break fellowship with other believers because they aren't interested in your differing views on eschatology? If so, why?

Dave

[Guest]

Btw, 666 was Nero.

Dang! I told them it was Hilary Clinton.

Shoel,

I think the tricky part about eschatology is that on one hand its a peripheral matter (or at least very secondary to serving Christ) yet on the other hand one's eschatology can dramatically shape one's view of the world and how one goes about following Jesus.

I occasionally listen to the Calvary Chapel radio network and I've noticed that they rarely seem to get through a sermon (on any book in the Bible) without bringing their eschatology into it.

It seems though that the true mark of Christian community would be if we can disagree about matters like eschatology, yet still worship and follow Jesus together. Unity without uniformity. I see some of that in the jail, where volunteers from a broad spectrum within Christianity minister to the inmates by endeavoring to keep the focus on Jesus.