NT Wright on the Rapture

[Michelle]

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Some believe we are in the new heaven and new earth now.

Conquest

Conquest, I'm just curious; is that what you believe?

[Conquest]

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Some believe we are in the new heaven and new earth now.

Conquest

Conquest, I'm just curious; is that what you believe?

Thank you for asking, I believe the Kingdom of God was inaugurated with the 1st Advent of Christ and will be consummated at His 2nd Advent when the entire cosmos will be restored to what was lost at the fall. I don’t think the earth will be destroyed, I believe the earth will be remade, removing sin and all those who stand in opposition to God.

Conquest

[darinhouston]

Thank you for asking, I believe the Kingdom of God was inaugurated with the 1st Advent of Christ and will be consummated at His 2nd Advent when the entire cosmos will be restored to what was lost at the fall. I don’t think the earth will be destroyed, I believe the earth will be remade, removing sin and all those who stand in opposition to God.

Conquest

I don't know that it's clear or important either way, but it's an interesting question -- do you have any particular gleanings from the word "remade" or elsewhere that would drive one or the other interpretation? "Remade" does sound like He'll be starting over. Since our resurrection bodies will be like that of Jesus, I assume, we will be extra-dimensional in some sense I suppose and can easily be "caught up" or "translated over" or whatever out of this material universe as it is "re-made". I've always seen it as a new Genesis of sorts, but your position is interesting.

To put a fine point on it, do you think if Christ returns tomorrow, my house will still be here in the new earth?

[Conquest]

Thank you for asking, I believe the Kingdom of God was inaugurated with the 1st Advent of Christ and will be consummated at His 2nd Advent when the entire cosmos will be restored to what was lost at the fall. I don’t think the earth will be destroyed, I believe the earth will be remade, removing sin and all those who stand in opposition to God.

Conquest

I don't know that it's clear or important either way, but it's an interesting question -- do you have any particular gleanings from the word "remade" or elsewhere that would drive one or the other interpretation? "Remade" does sound like He'll be starting over. Since our resurrection bodies will be like that of Jesus, I assume, we will be extra-dimensional in some sense I suppose and can easily be "caught up" or "translated over" or whatever out of this material universe as it is "re-made". I've always seen it as a new Genesis of sorts, but your position is interesting.

To put a fine point on it, do you think if Christ returns tomorrow, my house will still be here in the new earth?

This is a really good question. I don't know that I have a proof text I could point to that would support the idea of "remade", nor am I sure that the word captures what I meant. I don't think the NT addresses what it will be like when the "new" age is fully consumated. I think there is a passage in the Gospels where Christ was asked and He indicated we won't be married. Getting back to your question, I think the basis for my view probably comes out of the OT, going back to the Genesis account prior to the fall. It seems to me, the restoration of all things, would be the resotration to what was. However, if that entails your house, I couldn't tell you.

Conquest

[paulespino]

Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

In my understanding NT WRIGHT believes that the rapture is an imagery of our body transforming into incorruptible material.

[darinhouston]

I understand the "restoration" concept comes primarily from Acts 3.

Acts 3:18 “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

I don't see this as being about physical restoration so much as what NT Wright would call "putting things to rights." That could refer to a transformation of present earth to an Eden condition, but I don't think Wright even thinks the world will be literally returned to an Eden like condition. Making justice prevail, etc., and returning spiritual beings to a full relationship with Him can be considered a "restoration." I see this as being decoupled from the "new heavens and new earth" language from Revelation 21. They may happen at the same time, but I don't think they necessarily relate to the same concept.

One thing that should be noted is that Rev 21 speaks not only of a new earth, but a new heavens too -- so, if God does something to "fix" the heavens, then I can only imagine a cataclysmic event requiring temporary rescue of mankind.

[Conquest]

I understand the "restoration" concept comes primarily from Acts 3.

Acts 3:18 “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

I don't see this as being about physical restoration so much as what NT Wright would call "putting things to rights." That could refer to a transformation of present earth to an Eden condition, but I don't think Wright even thinks the world will be literally returned to an Eden like condition. Making justice prevail, etc., and returning spiritual beings to a full relationship with Him can be considered a "restoration." I see this as being decoupled from the "new heavens and new earth" language from Revelation 21. They may happen at the same time, but I don't think they necessarily relate to the same concept.

One thing that should be noted is that Rev 21 speaks not only of a new earth, but a new heavens too -- so, if God does something to "fix" the heavens, then I can only imagine a cataclysmic event requiring temporary rescue of mankind.

Not that NT Wright is inspired, but I think if you checked you would find, “putting things to rights” would include the restoration of the Cosmos. I’m pretty sure, if you checked Wright recognizes Romans 8 as including the earth in the “putting things right”. Perhaps a bit of Dante is coming through. I’m not sure I follow how the “new heavens and new earth” would require a cataclysmic event, could this not be hyperbolic language describing the fundamental change in restoring all things to what was once deemed good?

Conquest

[darinhouston]

could this not be hyperbolic language describing the fundamental change in restoring all things to what was once deemed good?

Certainly, it could.

Not sure what you mean by Romans 8 relating to restoration of anything but our bodies other than the following:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

I don't see this as necessarily relating to creation itself being changed, rather that it would enjoy a change which results from the coming glory of the children of God, themselves.

[Conquest]

Not sure what you mean by Romans 8 relating to restoration of anything but our bodies other than the following:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

I don't see this as necessarily relating to creation itself being changed, rather that it would enjoy a change which results from the coming glory of the children of God, themselves.

I’m not sure which translation you are using, I think the Amplified highlights the gist of the passage.
19For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].
20For the creation (nature) was subjected to frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope(D)
21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
22We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.(E)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... version=45

I’m not sure how after reading the above one could suggest the restoration of all things does not include the entire cosmos, and I think N.T. Wright sees it the same way.

[darinhouston]

Not sure what you mean by Romans 8 relating to restoration of anything but our bodies other than the following:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

I don't see this as necessarily relating to creation itself being changed, rather that it would enjoy a change which results from the coming glory of the children of God, themselves.

I’m not sure which translation you are using, I think the Amplified highlights the gist of the passage.
19For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].
20For the creation (nature) was subjected to frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope(D)
21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
22We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.(E)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... version=45

I’m not sure how after reading the above one could suggest the restoration of all things does not include the entire cosmos, and I think N.T. Wright sees it the same way.

It was an obscure translation called NASB (just kidding -- I should have noted it). This is interesting. BLB's concordance/greek feature shows ktisis, which is a generic reference to created things. So, maybe this isn't even a reference to the cosmos after all, even if phthora includes decay. The concordance suggests it refers to a moral decay or corruption in the NT, which would again lend itself to the "creature" definition instead of "creation." Maybe Paidion has some assistance here.

Because [3754] hoti
the creature [2937] ktisis
itself [846] autos
also [2532] kai
shall be delivered [1659] eleutheroo
from [575] apo
the bondage [1397] douleia
of corruption [5356] phthora
into [1519] eis
the glorious [1391] doxa
liberty [1657] eleutheria
of the children [5043] teknon
of God. [2316] theos

Here are the variety of translations, most of which translate "creation and not creature".

Available Translations and Versions for Rom 8:21
KJV - Rom 8:21 - Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
King James Version 1611, 1769


NKJV - Rom 8:21 - because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson


NLT - Rom 8:21 - All creation anticipates the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust


NIV - Rom 8:21 - that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.


Footnote:
Or subjected it in hope. 21 For
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society


ESV - Rom 8:21 - that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles


RVR - Rom 8:21 - porque también la creación misma será libertada de la esclavitud de corrupción, a la libertad gloriosa de los hijos de Dios.

Reina-Valera copyright © 1960 Sociedades Bíblicas en América Latina; copyright © renewed 1988 United Bible Societies.


NASB - Rom 8:21 - that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation


RSV - Rom 8:21 - because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.


ASV - Rom 8:21 - that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
American Standard Version 1901 Info


Young - Rom 8:21 - that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info


Darby - Rom 8:21 - that the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info


Webster - Rom 8:21 - Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info


HNV - Rom 8:21 - that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info


Vulgate - Rom 8:21 - quia et ipsa creatura liberabitur a servitute corruptionis in libertatem gloriae filiorum Dei
Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info