In like manner!

[Guest]

That's ok Ely...you Britts are allowed to be rude. But only because you guys are so polite about it.

But please, read the post again and reply to the argument. If you read it carefully you will see the argument.

HINT: He is pointing out the significance of the clouds and how there is nothing there that explicitly points out that the return will be physically, bodily or visibly.

This gentleman is forced by the angels' words to see some similarity between the ascension and AD70. At the ascension, Jesus literally ascended into the literal sky in the literal vision of the disciples and they eventually could not see Him anymore as He ascended beyond the literal clouds.

According to this bearded preterist, what is the similarity between the manner of the ascension and the manner of the "coming" of AD70?

[Guest]

That's ok Ely...you Britts are allowed to be rude. But only because you guys are so polite about it.

But please, read the post again and reply to the argument. If you read it carefully you will see the argument.

HINT: He is pointing out the significance of the clouds and how there is nothing there that explicitly points out that the return will be physically, bodily or visibly.

This gentleman is forced by the angels' words to see some similarity between the ascension and AD70. At the ascension, Jesus literally ascended into the literal sky in the literal vision of the disciples and they eventually could not see Him anymore as He ascended beyond the literal clouds.

According to this bearded preterist, what is the similarity between the manner of the ascension and the manner of the "coming" of AD70?

The OT is repleat with God's judgment on wickedness...wicked nations to be more direct. And even his own nation Jerusalem.

Isaiah 19:1 The burden against Egypt.Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

Jeremiah 4:13 “ Behold, he shall come up like clouds, And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!”

Lamentations 1:1 How the Lord has covered the daughter of ZionWith a cloud in His anger! He cast down from heaven to the earth The beauty of Israel, And did not remember His footstool In the day of His anger.

Ezekiel 30:3 For the day is near, Even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.

Joel 2:2 (THE DAY OF THE LORD PASSAGE)A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.

There are more...but I think I have made my point. Feel free to do your own study.

What I am suggesting is that to a first century Jew that knew their Bible, they would have understood "coming in the clouds," as Judgment with a capital J. Directly from God.

Matthew 26:64 "you will see [Me] sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Where when he returns does he put his brazen feet in judgment?

Zechariah 14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

Nahum 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.

I am NOT asking you to agree with me...although if you want to that is fine. I just want to know if you get my point.

[Guest]

Hi Mike.
Somehow my mind works very differently from yours. I misunderstood your first point in this post, as you pointed out. And now I am at a loss concerning this one about His coming in clouds or with clouds. I have read and reread your posts, and reread them again, but I can't figure out whether you are supporting or opposing a bodily, visible coming.

There are some people in my area who do not believe in the bodily, visible coming of Christ. They believe that the only second coming that will occur is Christ's coming into the mind and hearts of His people, that His substitutionary atonement refers to His mind being substituted for ours. His "coming with clouds", for them, means His coming with clouds of His saints who have departed this scene. All of this coming is "spiritual."
I heard one of the teachers of this group mock the idea of people believing in a bodily return of Christ in the words, "Do they expect Jesus to fall out of the sky? And if so, where is He going to land?"

Personally, I believe the second coming will be bodily and visible. And I believe the scripture to which you referred about His coming in like manner as you have seen Him go, is perhaps the clearest scripture that indicates it.

Jesus was raised to life bodily. True, it was not a mortal body such as He had before He died. It was immortal and apparently had the ability to move through closed doors. Notwithstanding, it was, in some sense, a physical body.

When Jesus appeared to the apostles in Jerusalem, they supposed that they saw a spirit. But Jesus said, "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have." {Luke 24:39}

So, I cannot help but conclude that if He returns in like manner as they saw Him depart, He will return with the same resurrected, physical body.

[Guest]

And now I am at a loss concerning this one about His coming in clouds or with clouds. I have read and reread your posts, and reread them again, but I can't figure out whether you are supporting or opposing a bodily, visible coming.

There are some people in my area who do not believe in the bodily, visible coming of Christ. They believe that the only second coming that will occur is Christ's coming into the mind and hearts of His people, that His substitutionary atonement refers to His mind being substituted for ours. His "coming with clouds", for them, means His coming with clouds of His saints who have departed this scene. All of this coming is "spiritual."
I heard one of the teachers of this group mock the idea of people believing in a bodily return of Christ in the words, "Do they expect Jesus to fall out of the sky? And if so, where is He going to land?"


I think "coming in the clouds" means Mike believes this means Jesus returned in judgement in 70AD and this was his second coming,but that was'nt what was meant by "in like manner" IMHO.
And yes i've heard that also, Paidion that "every eye" means our spiritual eyes.

[Guest]

i agree with Paidion here-- when the angels said that jesus would return in like manner, it certainly suggests that we would be able to see him, just as the disciples saw him depart.

is there any record of people seeing jesus physically in 70 AD? (or thereabouts?)

TK

[Guest]

Ok...Well...I guess what I am trying to get at is that any reference to Jesus "coming in the clouds," is Him coming in judgment in 70 AD, like He said, upon "that generation."(Matt 23:36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.) If Clouds are a part of the text that it is the same thing as the OT. Plain and simple Judgment from on high.

I'm suggesting that we should interpret, "coming on clouds," the way a first century Jew would have. How can we determine how they would have interpreted it. By there scriptures. Where "coming on clouds," means God judging people.

[Guest]

I'm suggesting that we should interpret, "coming on clouds," the way a first century Jew would have. How can we determine how they would have interpreted it. By there scriptures. Where "coming on clouds," means God judging people.

I understand the phrase "coming on clouds" to be judgement but in Acts 1 it says "This same Jesus ,who was lifted up from among you into heaven , will return in the same way in which you saw him go into heaven." 1.11
This does'nt sound like coming on clouds because he was "lifted from among you." So to return the same way he would be lowered into among you. You being his brethren who would be the brides who had oil in their lamps and were waiting for him. In 70AD his brethren were'nt in Jerusalem waiting to greet him because they had fled the city. It just sounds like you're reading into this what you want to fit preterism.

[Guest]

YOu know whats always bothered me about this discussion, steve7150, and others.......

Is that one would think, that such a remarkable event such as christ coming back to Earth, to Start the eternal Kingdom, etc., would be spoken of much in the n.t. BUT ITS NOT.

This is not an argument, just something that bothers me. IT seems too odd that this is the case. There is so much emphasis based on another "coming", yet the apostles didnt seem to make it such a deal as one would expect. Maybe my expectations are wrong.

Does anybody feel this way, or is it just me?

jimd

[Guest]

I understand the phrase "coming on clouds" to be judgement but in Acts 1 it says "This same Jesus ,who was lifted up from among you into heaven , will return in the same way in which you saw him go into heaven." 1.11 This does'nt sound like coming on clouds because he was "lifted from among you." So to return the same way he would be lowered into among you.

I also would like to add that coming on clouds is not the only phrase or words used to refer to the judgement of God in the O.T. The word visitation was also used to refer to God's judgment such as in
Exodus 32:34  Now therefore, go, lead the people...... the day when I visit for punishment, I will visit punishment upon them for their sin.” I would like to suggest that the word return in the Acts 1:11 is a reference to his second coming rather than his judgement in 70 AD.

[Guest]

Paul.......is there a difference between his judgment and 2nd coming?

I think most here agree that the "parousia" spoken of by jesus and the apostles was 70 a.d.

THe distinction is the resurrection, which is believed to be a future event.