70 A.D. passage...or future?

[Guest]

When a personal pronoun is used it can include up to all people of all time, but must include at a minimum, THE DIRECT AUDIENCE to be relevent and inspired.

8) Mike

So what is it about 2 Thessalonians 1 that makes you think that the describes event had to have taken place in the lifetime of Paul and his immediate audience? Are there not two plausible alternatives:

1. Whether dead or alive, Paul and the saints he was writing to would witness the events descrbied (either from above or below?

2. Even if Paul may have been expecting the events to take place in their lifetime, it doesn't follow that they had to take place in their lifetime. In other words, the described events were certain to happen, but they were not certain to happen in their lifetime.

What is there in the text itself which prohibits these two alternative explanations?

btw, why are you called psychomike?

[Guest]

When a personal pronoun is used it can include up to all people of all time, but must include at a minimum, THE DIRECT AUDIENCE to be relevent and inspired.

8) Mike

So what is it about 2 Thessalonians 1 that makes you think that the describes event had to have taken place in the lifetime of Paul and his immediate audience? Are there not two plausible alternatives:

1. Whether dead or alive, Paul and the saints he was writing to would witness the events descrbied (either from above or below?

2. Even if Paul may have been expecting the events to take place in their lifetime, it doesn't follow that they had to take place in their lifetime. In other words, the described events were certain to happen, but they were not certain to happen in their lifetime.

What is there in the text itself which prohibits these two alternative explanations?

btw, why are you called psychomike?

A coworker years ago gave me the name. I have no idea why. Either way it stuck.

You asked:

So what is it about 2 Thessalonians 1 that makes you think that the describes event had to have taken place in the lifetime of Paul and his immediate audience?

Audience relevance...His letter was addressed to a very real people that were under a very real persecution by a very real people that were very real enemies of the gospel. Paul also said that they would be given relief from this tribulation that they were suffering...in the first century.

If this is to be understood as an event thousands of years in the future then how could they have been given relief from that very real tribulation that they were suffering in the first century?

Next question:

Whether dead or alive, Paul and the saints he was writing to would witness the events descrbied (either from above or below?

Agreed. But I don't think them seeing these events was part of the text. Relief from tribulation was.

Last question:

Even if Paul may have been expecting the events to take place in their lifetime, it doesn't follow that they had to take place in their lifetime. In other words, the described events were certain to happen, but they were not certain to happen in their lifetime.

Audience relevance... This letter was written to them. We are reading someone elses mail. It is for us as believers but it was first and foremost written to them.



And now my question to you is: What is there in the text itself which necesitates your two alternative explanations?

8) Mike

[Guest]

Boy...You guys sure are easily distracted. Once again...Is 2 Thessalonians 1 speaking of a first century event or one that is still future to us?

Since you wrote this immediately after my last post, I assume you are including me. Far from being distracted, I believed I addressed your question. I thought my post answered the question. But if you want no more than a two or three word answer, I'll be glad to give it.

Still future.

If the passage does refer back to I Thessalonians 4, as I think it does, then it is important to pay some attention to its words:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. I Thess 4:16,17

Now let's ask ourselves. Did these events happen in 70 A.D.?

1. Did the Lord Himself descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God? If so, surely such a cry, call, and sound would have been heard by the world.
But there is no historical record of anyone having heard such loud noises.

2. Were the dead in Christ' raised to life. Were those in Christ who were alive caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air? If so, there is no record of anyone having been aware of it.

[Guest]

Boy...You guys sure are easily distracted. Once again...Is 2 Thessalonians 1 speaking of a first century event or one that is still future to us?

Since you wrote this immediately after my last post, I assume you are including me. Far from being distracted, I believed I addressed your question. I thought my post answered the question. But if you want no more than a two or three word answer, I'll be glad to give it.

Still future.

If the passage does refer back to I Thessalonians 4, as I think it does, then it is important to pay some attention to its words:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. I Thess 4:16,17

Now let's ask ourselves. Did these events happen in 70 A.D.?

1. Did the Lord Himself descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God? If so, surely such a cry, call, and sound would have been heard by the world.
But there is no historical record of anyone having heard such loud noises.

2. Were the dead in Christ' raised to life. Were those in Christ who were alive caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air? If so, there is no record of anyone having been aware of it.

My apologies...I thought you were answering Jim's question. I would ask you though to reconsider your position AFTER reading my last response to Ely. To take the events of 2 Thessalonians 1 and put them in the future would mean that it had no relevance to those whom Paul wrote it. Which is unacceptable in the light of the context. The Thessalonians were in very real tribulation in which Paul said that they would see relief.

Is it possible that 2 Thessalonians 1 & 2 are speaking of two different events?

8) Mike

[Guest]

To take the events of 2 Thessalonians 1 and put them in the future would mean that it had no relevance to those whom Paul wrote it. Which is unacceptable in the light of the context.

The Thessalonians had become excited, fearing that the events which Paul described in I Thess 4, had already happened!

The relevance is that Paul was assuring them in 2 Thessalonians, that the events were yet future, informing them specifically exactly what events must take place first!

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come... for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-42

[Guest]

that's certainly how i have always interpreted this, Paidion. they were afraid they missed it.

TK

[Guest]

To take the events of 2 Thessalonians 1 and put them in the future would mean that it had no relevance to those whom Paul wrote it. Which is unacceptable in the light of the context.

The Thessalonians had become excited, fearing that the events which Paul described in I Thess 4, had already happened!

The relevance is that Paul was assuring them in 2 Thessalonians, that the events were yet future, informing them specifically exactly what events must take place first!

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

I'm sorry...I think we are talking past each other.

I am NOT talking about 2 THESSALONIANS 2...I AM talking about 2 THESSALONIANS 1.

2 Thessalonians 1 has nothing to do with Paul reassuring them about what he had said in 1 Thessalonians 4. That does not begin until 2 Thessalonians 2.

Please read the passage(2 Thessalonians 1) and look at my last response to Ely again and respond to those issues. Once again I am sorry for the confusion.

8) Mike

[Guest]

I am sorry Mike that I thought you were talking about 2 Thess 2.
Obviously, I wasn't paying attention.

In my opinion even chapter 1 is futuristic. It appears that Paul wasn't saying that God would relieve them of their affliction immediately, but when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven. I don't think He has been revealed yet. He hasn't come to be glorified in his saints yet. I think the whole passage indicates a future hope for the Thessalonians at the second coming.

... indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
2 Thess 1:6-10

[Guest]

Just a quick question, psychomike.
Do you believe that Jesus was raised up from among the people that came out of Egypt with Moses?


Deut 18:15
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;(KJV)

These pronouns seem to be indicating (from the point of view you are taking) these particular people and this Prophet (Jesus) must come from this particular group. And these particular people must hearken unto him.

[Guest]

Next question:

Whether dead or alive, Paul and the saints he was writing to would witness the events descrbied (either from above or below?

Agreed. But I don't think them seeing these events was part of the text. Relief from tribulation was.

9 These [persecutors of the saints] will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.

To me, the phrase "to be marvelled at" seems to imply an awe-struck beholding of the glorious coming of Jesus Christ. This is held out as an incentive for persevering under trial. I'm just saying that whether or not they were on earth or coming with Him, the believers could "marvel at" Him when He is revealed from heaven.

Last question:

Even if Paul may have been expecting the events to take place in their lifetime, it doesn't follow that they had to take place in their lifetime. In other words, the described events were certain to happen, but they were not certain to happen in their lifetime.

Audience relevance... This letter was written to them. We are reading someone elses mail. It is for us as believers but it was first and foremost written to them.

Yes indeed, but this doesn't necessitate that the events had to transpire within their lifetime.

And now my question to you is: What is there in the text itself which necesitates your two alternative explanations?

Nothing. But that's kind of my point! You are talking as though this passage must be understood to be referring to AD70. I have suggested two possible alternative interpretations. You haven't successfully shown (in my mind at least) why these interpretations are disallowed.

For me, the bottom line is this: Paul's apparent expectance that these things would happen soon does not require the events had to happen soon.