Kingdom of Heaven?

[Duncan]

I find the following chart by Russell to be helpful on this issue. This is from The Parousia: http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.co ... p2-9.php#a

ESCHATOLOGICAL TABLE, OR CONSPECTUS OF
PASSAGES RELATING TO THE LAST TIMES.

The End of the Age
[ h sunteleia tou aiwnov ]

Matt. 13:39—‘The harvest is the end of the age.’

Matt. 13:40—‘So shall it be in the end of this age.’

Matt. 13:49—‘So shall it be at the end of the age.’

Matt. 24:3—‘What shall be the sign of thy coming [parousia] and of the end of the age?’

Matt. 28:20—‘Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age.’

Heb. 9:26—‘But now once in the end of the ages [twn aiwnwn]’

The End
[to telov ta telh ]

Matt. 10:22—‘He that endureth to the end shall be saved.’

Matt. 24:6—‘But the end is not yet’. (Mark 13:9 Luke 21:9)

Matt. 24:13—‘But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved’. (Mark 13:13)

Matt. 24:14—‘Then shall the end come.’

1 Cor. 1:8—‘Who shall also confirm you unto the end.’

1 Cor. 10:11—‘Upon whom the ends of the ages are come.’

1 Cor. 15:24—‘Then cometh the end.’

Heb. 3:6—‘Firm unto the end.’

Heb. 3:14—‘Stedfast unto the end.’

Heb. 6:11—‘Diligence unto the end.’

1 Pet. 4:7—‘The end of all things is at hand.’

Rev. 2:26—‘He that keepeth my works unto the end.’

The Last Times, Days, etc.

1 Tim. 4:1—‘In the latter times some shall apostatise’ [en usteroiv kairoiv].

2 Tim. 3:1—‘In the last days perilous times shall come’ [en escataiv hmeraiv].’

Heb. 1:2—‘In these last days [God] hath spoken to us’ [ep escatou twn hmerwn toutwn].

James 5:3—‘Ye have heaped up treasure in the last days’ [ en escataiv hmeraiv].

1 Pet. 1:5—‘Salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time’ [en kairq escatq].

1 Pet. 1:20—‘Who was manifest in these last times for you’ [ep escatou twn cronwn].

2 Pet. 3:3—‘There shall come in the last days scoffers’ [ep escatou twn hmerwn].

1 John 2:18—‘It is the last time’ [hour] [escath wra].

Jude 1:18—‘That there should be mockers in the last time’ [en escatq cronq].

EQUIVALENT PHRASES REFERRING TO THE SAME PERIOD.

The Day.

Matt. 25:13—‘Ye know neither the day nor the hour when the Son of man cometh.’

Luke 17:30—‘The day when the Son of man is revealed.’

Rom. 2:16—‘In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men.’

1 Cor. 3:13—‘The day shall declare it.’

Heb. 10:25—‘Ye see the day approaching.’

That Day.

Matt. 7:22—‘Many shall say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord.’

Matt. 24:36—‘But of that day and that hour knoweth no man.’

Luke 10:12—‘It shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom.’

Luke 21:34—‘And so that day come upon you unawares.’

1 Thess. 5:4—‘That that day should overtake you as a thief.’

2 Thess. 2:3—‘That day shall not come except there come the apostasy.’

2 Tim. 1:12—‘Which I have committed unto him against that day.’

2 Tim. 1:18—‘That he may find mercy of the Lord in that day.’

2 Tim. 4:8—‘A crown... which the Lord... shall give me at that day.’

The Day of the Lord.

1 Cor. 1:8—‘That ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.’

1 Cor. 5:5—‘That the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.’

2 Cor. 1:14—‘Ye are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.’

Phil. 2:16—‘That I may rejoice in the day of Christ.’

1 Thess. 5:2—‘The day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.’

The Day of God.

2 Pet. 3:12—‘Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God.’

The Great Day.

Acts 2:20—‘That great and notable day of the Lord.’

Jude 1:6—‘The judgment of the great day.’

Rev. 6:17—‘The great day of his wrath is come.’

Rev. 16:14—‘The battle of the great day.’

The Day of Wrath.

Rom. 2:5—‘Treasurest up wrath against the day of wrath.’

Rev. 6:17—‘The great day of his wrath is come.’

The Day of Judgment.

Matt. 10:15—‘It shall be more tolerable in the day of judgment’. (Mark 6:11)

Matt. 11:22—‘It shall be more tolerable... in the day of judgment.’

Matt. 11:24—‘It shall be more tolerable... in the day of judgment.’

Matt. 12:36—‘They shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.’

2 Pet. 2:9—‘To reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment.’

2 Pet. 3:7—‘The day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.’

1 John 4:17—‘That we may have boldness in the day of judgment.’

The Day of Redemption.

Eph. 4:30—‘Sealed unto the day of redemption.’

The Last Day.

John 6:39—‘That I should raise it up at the last day.’

John 6:40—‘I will raise him up at the last day.’

John 6:44—‘And I will raise him up at the last day.’

John 6:54—‘And I will raise him up at the last day.’

John 11:24—‘He shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.’

From the comparison of these passages it will appear, —

1.That they all refer to one and the same period—a certain definite and specific time.
2.That they all either assume or affirm that the period in question is not far distant.
3.The limit beyond which it is not permissible to go in determining the period called ‘the last times’ is indicated in the New Testament scriptures, viz. the lifetime of the generation which rejected Christ.
This brings us to the period of the destruction of Jerusalem, as marking ‘the close of the age,’ ‘the day of the Lord,’ ‘the end.’ That is to say, the coming of the Lord, or the Parousia.

[Mellontes]

Does the NT speak of two different ends, especially when considering that Daniel is quoted in the New Testament?

Apparently it does! Even in two of the verses you cite "the end" is used differently. "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt.24:13). The end of what? The end of Jerusalem? Why would enduring until that point be the cut-off time for an individual to endure, in order to be saved? Some of them would in fact die before that date, but would be saved nonetheless. Some might live beyond that date, but would still be expected to "endure" as a condition for their salvation. This endurance, in the context, was an endurance of the hatred of all nations (not just their Jewish persecutors), as Jesus says in verse 9. Clearly "the end" to which they were required to endure, was the end of their lives, not the end of Jerusalem.

Perhaps you are being too narrow in your understanding of the word "saved." Are you saying that every instance of "saved" points to spiritual salvation? I would rather say that this "saved" is the same as deliverance. It may be that spiritual salvation as well. But since you absolutely refuse to even consider that their redemption would come at the destruction of Jerusalem as THE parousia event unfolded (Luke 21:28), it is not surprising that you interpret in the manner that you do. You say A parousia as a type happened in 70 AD. You have to. And in doing so you MUST ignore every time statement of near, at hand, nigh, etc. etc. etc. to that first century church of THE parousia's imminence. You have TWO parousias in the NT. Preterists have ONE. Remember a while back when I asked for the complete list as to which parousia Scriptures referred to 70 AD and which parousia Scriptures allegedly referred to the future final end of history? Well, that list has never been given, and this is not the only forum that I have requested said list. It has never been given. And why? Because even among partial preterists like yourself, Steve, there is an overlapping of verses. Some which you say refer to the future, other partial preterists say refer to 70AD. And some you say refer to 70 AD, others say refer to the future. Now, I realize I can't be dogmatic on which verses you choose for which parousia (because I haven't seen your list) but I think you get the drift...

Now back to this "the end."

You said, "Clearly "the end" to which they were required to endure, was the end of their lives, not the end of Jerusalem." To me, that seems rather redundant. It's like saying "I found my keys in the last place I looked." We all endure to the end of our lives - every single one of us. It seems much more likely that "the end" is a specific event unrelated to personal death. And when you consider the first few verses of Matthew 24 which started this whole conversation off (the destruction of the temple)...

Matthew 24:1-3 - And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Clearly, the topic at hand (if at hand is to mean anything) is the destruction of the temple. That is rather obvious, to me, at least. And since these 4 disciples who had raised the question were not ignorant of the OT, they knew that the temple had been previously destroyed. They knew also that it was a Day of the Lord - hence their reference to parousia. These are not two separate questions as our Western culture would dictate, but is one question with three parts - temple destruction, His coming in judgment, the end of their physical temple "age" (world- aion). Let's keep the context in perspective here. Jesus is not going to answer something outside of their intended question, is He?

[As for Matthew 24:14 (the very next verse), it may be that the end of the temple is referred to there, as you say. But this would mean that the term "the end" was used in two different ways in the space of two consecutive verses. I have no problem with such a suggestion, as it is consistent with the use of the same term in the Book of Daniel itself—that is, Daniel uses the term a variety of ways, to refer to a variety of times (as does the rest of scripture).

For example, one of the many ways in which Daniel (and other writers) use the phrase "the end" is very generically—meaning the end of some designated period or another, eg., the end of three years (Dan.1:5, 18), or the end of ten days (Dan.1:15), or the end of twelve months (Dan.4:29), or the end of "seven times" (Dan.4:34), or the end of "some years" (Daniel 11:6), etc.

In a few places, Daniel uses the term "the end" to mean the end of Jerusalem, in AD 70 (e.g., Dan.9:26; 11:35, 40; 12:4, 8-9)

However, he similarly uses the term "the end" to speak of the time of Antiochus (167 BC) and the Maccabean war (Dan.8:17, 19); and other prophets (who also have things to say about AD 70), elsewhere use the term "the end" to speak of the end of Israel in 722 BC (Amos 8:2) and of the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BC (Ezek.7:2, 3, 6).

Therefore, it is folly (in light of biblical data) to assume that "the end" described in Daniel 9-12 must be the same event referred to whenever the term is used elsewhere (e.g., in the New Testament). In both Testaments, the most common usage of the term "the end" is generically to mean the final outcome of a thing or a person. For example:

Eccl.7:8
The end of a thing is better than its beginning; The patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.

Isa.46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done

Jer.3:5
Will He remain angry forever? Will He keep it to the end?'

Jer.5:31
The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?

Matt.10:22
"And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matt.24:13
"But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matt.26:58
But Peter followed Him at a distance to the high priest's courtyard. And he went in and sat with the servants to see the end.

John 13:1
Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.

1 Cor.1:8
who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor.1:13
For we are not writing any other things to you than what you read or understand. Now I trust you will understand, even to the end

1 Pet.4:17
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?


In some cases, "the end" would appear to best be seen as a reference to "the end of the world as we know it", including the resurrection of the dead and the subjugation of all things (every enemy) to Christ. For example:

Dan.6:26
His kingdom is the one which shall not be destroyed, And His dominion shall endure to the end.

1 Cor.15:24
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

Dan.12:13
"But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."


I realize that you do not doubt that these things have already occurred thousands of years ago. However, I doubt it, and no full-preterist has ever provided me with a good reason to believe it. But then, I hold these people to a higher standard of exegesis than that to which they hold themselves. As I have said repeatedly, when discussing this, the full preterist is simplistic and, apparently, incapable of nuanced thought. The huge mistake that full-preterists make (and the ones at this forum have no excuse for continuing to do this, since I have pointed it out to them long ago and repeatedly) is that they find a word (like parousia) or, in this case, a phrase two words (the end), and arbitrarily decide to woodenly interpret every occurrence of the word as if it always must refer to the same thing. It takes only a few minutes with a concordance to prove this a faulty procedure.

I see that you totally missed what I said. That's okay. It happens a lot. The "end" that I reference is an eschatolgical end. It is the same end that matches Daniel's time of the end. We know that Daniel is not talking about the end of crop harvest or about the end of his life, right? Let's keep it in context. It is the same end that is connected with events such as the parousia, resurrection, judgment, etc. Your posting of such a lengthy list of verses using the word "end" does nothing to belittle my argument. It only shows how you misunderstood what I was saying. To even stoop to such methodology thinking that I believe one word must mean the same in all contexts is ridiculous...but it does remind me of futurists, who, when they see the word "world" conjure up an image of the planet Earth. Perhaps that is what you do, Steve, in Matthew 24:3. Would the end of planet Earth be your exegesis for Matthew 24:3? I'm asking, not stating...

And now let's take a closer look at your list that you used to say that "the end" was not an eschatological end...I won't even bother with the verses that are obviously not referring to this kind of end. But I should like to point out the context of the other "ends" which you say were not...

Matthew 10:22-23 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

1 Corinthians 1:8 - Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:13-14 - For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;
14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And then you said the following:

In some cases, "the end" would appear to best be seen as a reference to "the end of the world as we know it", including the resurrection of the dead and the subjugation of all things (every enemy) to Christ. For example:

Dan.6:26
His kingdom is the one which shall not be destroyed, And His dominion shall endure to the end.

1 Cor.15:24
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

Dan.12:13
"But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

I agree with Steve in that these verses may iclude the time that the dead are resurrected because I have said that all along. I don't see where he is getting the idea that the "world," as in planet Earth, comes to an end...hence my question to him about Matthew 24:3. And, of course, I would disagree as to what "every enemy" meant...and when subjugation in Christ occurs. God's enemy BY FAR were the apostate Jews (temple Judaism), and salvation IN CHRIST is when we are subjugated...

Admittedly, Daniel 6:26 is difficult. Are we saying that His dominion would also come to an end at "the end"? It starts to affect whether God has a beginning and an end, like the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. There is no end to God's kingdom. A difficult verse to be sure.

Now, 1 Cor 15:24 is not so elusive. It brings with it the context of first fruits (the verse before). The first fruits principle throughout Scripture is something that is just prior to the main harvest. Futurists would have us believe that there is almost a 2,000-year gap (and counting) between the first fruits and the harvest. It also brings into context the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death, which I believe to be a parallel to 1 Cor 15:54 - a quote from Isaiah 25:8. I believe that futurists refer to this "death" as physical death, and if so, it is no wonder that they believe "the end" has not yet occurred. I addressed this exact issue in this post: http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3482#p45675

And as for Daniel 12:13, I see no difficulty with it referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and temple because of Daniel 12:7:

Daniel 12:7 - And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

But we have been over these things several times before, so, if he wishes, I will let Steve has the last response. Perhaps he could address what I said in my last post. I reiterate:

The "last days" scoffers (ἐμπαίκτης -Strong's 1703) of 2 Peter 3:3 are the "mockers" (ἐμπαίκτης -Strong's 1703) of Jude 18 that had arrived!

2 Peter 3:3 - Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Jude 1:18-19 - How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

[Mellontes]

Thanks for that chart, Duncan. It is good to be reminded of the "big picture." The imminence of the parousia (and the events associated with that event) to that first century church are so obvious. I am constantly amazed that they are so ignored by the futurists.