Rapture in Full Preterism?

[Guest]

I did not even bother looking it up in the septuagint. It certainly isn't in there to be sure, but since the septuagint wasn't composed until after Haggai was recorded it seems reasonable that the Hebrew version is worth considering since it was probably originally recorded in Hebrew.

Several prophetic OT writings include (what we now in retrospect understand to be) messianic prophecies mixed in with more short range fulfillments like 2 Samuel 7. 2Sam7 has both a near & far fulfillment. Yet reading it at face value it seems to be only about a single event.

So this is one reason I would say that the resurrection hasn't occurred yet. That's why I break up Jesus' coming. A judgment coming, using the same language as the OT uses of such events. And a "resurrection coming" when the final enemy (death) is defeated. Since the resurrection and defeat of death did not occur in 70AD it stands to reason that it is still a future event. Just as 2 Sam 7 applied to both Solomon and Jesus, both a near and far fulfillment.

[Guest]

It seems to me that full preterists succumb to a similar "foolish consistency" in not recognizing the many ways in which the term "coming" is applied to different events in scripture:

1) some to AD 70 (e.g., Matt.10:23; 16:28; 21:40/ Heb.10:37, etc.),

2) some to other events which are now past (John 1:11; 14:18, 23/ Rev.2:5, 16; 3:20)--to which could be added numerous Old Testament passages that speak in similar terms of thing now long past, but not referring to AD 70 (e.g., Isaiah 19:1/ Dan.7:13/ Mic.1:3/Zech.1:16; 8:3, etc.).

3) some to an event not yet realized (Acts 1:11/ 1 Thess.4:16/ 2 Thess.1:7-10/ Phil.3:20-21/ 2 Tim.4:1/ 1 Pet.1:7/ 1 John 3:2).

I know that full preterists have alternative explanations of verses in category 3 (above), but to take them as future is the simplest way and the way that they would most likely have been understood by their original readers. Category 2 cannot by any means be applied to AD 70, so why artificially force those verses in category 3 into that straight-jacket?


This is why I remain a partial preterist, and am not impressed with the case for full preterism.

Hi Steve...I'm concerned with your thoughts on 2 Thess. 1:7-10, as speaking of an event still future to us. When you look at all of the synoptics it seems that the same things are being spoken of. Judgment...Jesus coming...Angels...glory of the Father. Am I wrong to see a connection here?

I would ask you to reconsider your position on 2 Thess. 1 being future. Cleansing by fire was promised to those of that generation who were enemies of the gospel. Just a thought!

mike

[Guest]

ii must admit that deprogramming of my traditional rapture view is coming along quite slowly; likely because i am not convinced my traditional view is not correct. i am somewhat mystified by the Pret position on this, probably because i am somewhat ignorant of that theology as a whole.

perhaps a quick point of clarification will help-- do Pret believe that there was a rapture at 70 AD? in other words, do they believe that living believers were caught up in the air and given resurrection bodies? if so, how was the apostle John around to write his epistles until 90 AD or so?

this question may seem juvenile but if you could answer anyways i would appreciate it.

TK

[Guest]

ii must admit that deprogramming of my traditional rapture view is coming along quite slowly; likely because i am not convinced my traditional view is not correct. i am somewhat mystified by the Pret position on this, probably because i am somewhat ignorant of that theology as a whole.

perhaps a quick point of clarification will help-- do Pret believe that there was a rapture at 70 AD? in other words, do they believe that living believers were caught up in the air and given resurrection bodies? if so, how was the apostle John around to write his epistles until 90 AD or so?

this question may seem juvenile but if you could answer anyways i would appreciate it.

TK

1. You're assuming that there were books of the Bible that were written after 70AD. Probably from notes in the commentary at the front of each book of the Bible. I think some people believe that the books of 1,2&3 John were written after the fall of Jerusalem/Babylon. And that, based on a lated date of Revelation.

As far as a literal rapture. I personally don't think so. But there are some that do. They base this on the void of Christian authorship after the fall of Jerusalem. On the other hand I think we need to consider the origin of Pauls teaching on the gathering together of the elect.

1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Matt 24:30-31 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel 12:2-3 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine, Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness, Like the stars forever and ever.

Plus all of the numerous passages from OT resurrection passages that talk about gethering the elect from the four corners/winds. Paul was not preaching anything new.

On the other hand could it be that Paul was wrong in his observation and compilation of Jesus statments and OT passages. I know some people on this forum believe that Jesus, Peter, James, John and Paul were all wrong regarding the timing of these events.

So if they could have been mistaken about the timing...could they have misunderstood the nature?

[Guest]

psycho said.........

I know some people on this forum believe that Jesus, Peter, James, John and Paul were all wrong regarding the timing of these events.

So if they could have been mistaken about the timing...could they have misunderstood the nature?

I am ok with that. Lets get rid of inspiration, and especially inerrancy, and start all over.

Cuz if they didnt understand these things........then when Jesus said "the Spirit would guide them into all truth........", must not be correct.

jd