Amills/ Prets and One World Government

[Guest]

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years have ended, Satan shall be loosed from his prison...

Presuppositions sure are blinding.

"This is the first resurrection" is a parenthetical statement. The thousand years being defined in vss. 4-5a. IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

John 5:24-29 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Those who had accepted Christ as their Messiah had been resurrected.(Eph. 2) Also Peter called first century believers priests.

Those who had NOT accepted Christ as their Messiah were "TWICE DEAD."(Jude 12)<---Second death.

Just something to think about!

[Guest]

Presuppositions sure are blinding.

"This is the first resurrection" is a parenthetical statement. The thousand years being defined in vss. 4-5a. IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

As you say, "Presuppositions sure are blinding." And it's always the other guy who presupposes, isn't it"?

"This is the first resurrection" is not a parenthetical statement. It is the first sentence of the explanation of the vision. John saw, "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived again..."

This is the first resurrection ---- when they live again at Christ's coming.
After that they will reign with Christ a thousand years.

Compare with:

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these that are arrayed in white robes? and where did they come from? And I said to him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they who came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:13,14

Explanations of the visions beging in that kind of way, namely:

These [ whom John saw in his vision as arrayed in white robes] are they who came out of great tribulation, etc.

This [vision of the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus] is the first resurrection, that is a vision which represents the first resurrection. And those who will be raised will reign with Christ a thousand years.

[Guest]

This is the first resurrection ---- when they live again at Christ's coming. After that they will reign with Christ a thousand years.

Now you've got me really cornfuzed...

I guess I can see why you think the way you do. You left out some key parts of the passage.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

Matt. 19:28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration/restoration(of Israel), when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus sat on His throne of glory(David's throne) when He ascended on high. Peter tells us this in Acts 2. This is when the disciples as well sat on 12 thrones judging the nations. If those of the tribes accepted the gospel they went on to everlasting life. If they did not they went on to everlasting condemnation. This was judgment.

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

John 14:19&23 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also...If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Revelation 1:6 and HAS made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Did you catch that...Has! Not will...HAS. The greeting in the book of Revelation was not written to a far off generation. But to those living at that time. To those who were in the tribulation(vs.9) with John.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

The rest of the dead were those who had not accepted Jesus as their Messiah. They have sealed their fate by having rejected both Jesus and the Holy Spirit.(Matt 12:32)

This is the first resurrection.

What is the first resurrection? It is the time spoken of in vss. 4&5.

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The first resurrection was the time in which the gospel went out to all the world. Which mind you Paul says had been accomplished within that generation. If you took part in the resurrection/restoration of Israel, then the second death would have no power over you. If you rejected the gospel you were "twice dead"(Jude 12) and would not live again until the end of the thousand years. In which all would stand before the Great White Throne and be judged according to their works.

And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

I myself can't ignore the testimony of the New Testament. Those who accepted their Messiah WERE kings and priests. They WERE reigning with him. Those who WERE DEAD in their trespasses, HAD BEEN made alive WITH Christ and HAD BEEN raised up to sit in heavenly places.

Those who did NOT accept Jesus as their Messiah were clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

I'm not asking you to agree with me. But it cannot be ignored that all of the details spoken of in Rev. 20:4-5 were a present day reality for those who accepted their Messiah. And just because it was spiritual in nature does not change the reality of it.

8)

[Guest]

Since anyone worth their weight in salt , preterist or futurist believes that Matthew 24:4-31 was talking about AD70

More logical errors:

- Appeal to authority (everybody believes X so X must be true
- Ad hominem (anyone who doesn't believe X is not "worth their weight in salt")

Anyhoo, you haven't actually answered my question. Okay, so Paul was talking about what Jesus was talking about. So what was Jesus talking about?

Ely, if those Thessalonians were taught by Paul, wouldnt they understand that the day of the Lord was to be more than something local (even a famine or non-destructive event spoken of by Peter)??

Jim, deception is called deception because it does just that! It deceives (leads away by trickery) those who had been on the right track. For example, Paul had previously taught the Galatians about salvation by grace through faith and not by works of the law, yet some of them were being hoodwinked by some Judaizers.

Or are you suggesting that that is what paul taught them, and so thats how they could of thought that they missed it??

If full preterism is correct, then indeed this is the case. Paul was merely correcting them on their timing.

[Guest]

Since anyone worth their weight in salt , preterist or futurist believes that Matthew 24:4-31 was talking about AD70

More logical errors:

- Appeal to authority (everybody believes X so X must be true
- Ad hominem (anyone who doesn't believe X is not "worth their weight in salt")

Anyhoo, you haven't actually answered my question. Okay, so Paul was talking about what Jesus was talking about. So what was Jesus talking about?

Re: Appeal to authority...Yeah, who doesn't appeal to authority. Even God swore by Himself because there was no one greater.

Ad hominem: Yup...but it gets the point across with less words. Maybe what I should have said is that those authorities that I respect because of their consistency in interpretation tend to interpret those passages in Matt. 24 as speaking of AD70. If you have a better suggestion as to what the first part of Matt. 24 is speaking about, I am willing to listen.

I say that the gathering of the elect is simply the work of the gospel going out to the whole world via His angels/messengers.

mike

[Guest]

I say that the gathering of the elect is simply the work of the gospel going out to the whole world via His angels/messengers.

Are you saying that this only began in AD70? (Bear in mind we are talking about a passage in a letter written to Gentiles living in Europe who had believed the gospel and had been saved - all well before AD70)

[Guest]

I say that the gathering of the elect is simply the work of the gospel going out to the whole world via His angels/messengers.

Are you saying that this only began in AD70? (Bear in mind we are talking about a passage in a letter written to Gentiles living in Europe who had believed the gospel and had been saved - all well before AD70)

I think a mistake that is made interpreting passages like Matt 24 is to focus on the minutia and miss the meta-narrative. The actual gathering together that is spoken of in Matt 24 is the final working of gathering together In Christ all of the harvest. We need not forget that those who were living in the first century were living in an agrarian culture. Terms like first fruit, harvest, reaping, sowing, etc. would have been common to them but not to most today.

Eph. 1:10, 13-14 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

The receiving of the Spirit at pentacost was the betrothal of the bride of Christ. The destruction of Jerusalem signaled that the marriage supper of the Lamb had come. That first century remnant was the betrothed and when Jerusalem was destroyed they became the bride. And we as the church are the children of the bride.

But I guess if you are a futurist you would say that the betrothed has been waiting thousands of years for her bridegroom.

Maybe a good look at Biblical typology and the first exodus would help explain the second exodus. They only wandered in the wilderness for 40 years in the first one. I would suggest that if it has been 2000 years without having entered into that rest that Bible typology fails.

Sorry for rambling

mike

[Guest]

Mike, Jesus was answering a specific question posed by His disciples which concerned (among other things) the end of the age. Likewise, Paul was writing to give specific information to the Thessalonians conerning the Day of Christ and their being gathered to Him. It appears that because you are committed to ful preterism, you cannot allow either Jesus' or Paul's words to be saying what they seem to be clearly saying.

In your last post, you did what you have repeatedly done. You have been pinned down and asked to resolve problems with a particular idea you hold to. Your response is to introduce some other issue leaving previous the problems unresolved. Then, when your new theory gets analysed and is found to have major problems, you shift again - again leaving the problems un-resolved. And so on and so on.

You've done this time and time again in conversations with me and I'm getting a bit tired of it. As a result, in order to save time and energy, it's probably best if I cease attempting to reason with you concerning your eschatology because it's getting us nowhere.