Luke 21:31-32

[RickC]

On another thread, mikew wanted to discuss this passage {Hi Mike}.
Here's the text with some surrounding context and an excerpt from Mat 24 {btw, I prefer to post relevant texts on threads rather than having to look them up so everyone can see them, myself included},

Lu 21 (NIV)
20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

29He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

And for comparison & contrast:
Matthew 24 (NIV)
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' {Is. 13:10; 34:4, + other OT parallels}

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it {some versions have: or "he"} is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

How does Luke 21:31-32 fit in your understanding?

I have to go to work today {now!}...but will be back soon.
'Just wanted to get the thread started, Thanks,

[mikew]

Hi Rick,

I may not have much (any) time to look at this for a month or so... we will see.

The basic thing I saw in these verses was that the kingdom of God was starting after the fall of Jerusalem. The kingdom could become near (close at hand) only after the kingdom has come into existence.

So the kingdom had not started yet. The idea is that this "nearness" represents more of a time element even though the idea of the Greek may convey something almost within reach of the fingers, a physical nearness. (I am thinking on ideas of "nearness" I hadn't examined before.)

I suppose that some people may apply the idea of physically coming near (or something similar in an unseen sense) such that the kingdom would have existed sometime earlier than the fall of Jerusalem.

Note that John the Baptist preached that the people had only the last moments before the kingdom came as their time to repent. He said "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Then if they didn't understand the kingdom, Jesus said they wouldn't be healed Matt 13:14-15

Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


The question on these verses was basically of the sort" If the kingdom had started, why wasn't the kingdom near the disciples earlier?" Another question deals with the nature of the kingdom if it wasn't near until the moments of Luke 21:31-32

[Paidion]

Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things come to be. Matthew 24:34

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all comes to be. Luke 21:32

In the Matthew 24 passage, "all these things" include the following:

1. There will be great tribulation such as has never occurred, and such that will never occur again. [vs 21]

Did that, in fact, happen? Was there greater tribulation at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. than in the holocaust where 6 million Jews were killed in most horrific ways?

2. As the lighting of the sun comes from the east and shines to the west, so will the coming of Christ be.[vs 27]

Did Christ come in 70 A.D.? If so, was it as obvious to everyone as the sunrise, sunshine throughout the day, and the sunset?

3. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, there will be great wonders in the sky. [vs 29]

Were there great wonders in the sky after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.?

4. Right after that, Christ will come and all the nations will mourn when they see Him coming on clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [vs 30]

After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., did all the nations see Him coming on clouds of heaven with power and great glory?

5. Then Christ will send his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his elect from one end of heaven to the other [vs 32]

It seems to me that this passage is interpreted, not according to what did not happenin 70 A.D., but rather according to a particular interpretation of Matthew 24:34.

Now I invite you to compare the wording of Matthew 24:34 with that of Luke 1:20

Matthew 24:34
Truly, I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things come to be.

Luke 1:20
And look! You will be silent and not able to speak until the day these things come to be.

The construction "until ... these things come to be" is identical in both passages.
The Greek word "γενηται" ("become" or "come to be") is used in each. In each, it is the third person singular, 2nd aorist middle deponent of the word "γινομαι".

Let's see what things were to come to pass in Luke 1:20 before Zachariah was able to speak:

1. Zachariah's wife would bear a son [vs 13]
2. Many would rejoice at his son's birth [vs 14]
3. Zachariah would name his son "John" [vs 15]
4. John would become great before the Lord, and drink no wine or strong drink. [vs 15]
5. John would go in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and to make ready for the Lord a people prepared. [vs 17]

Did all of these things come to be before Zachariah was able to speak? The first three did, but not the last two. Zachariah recovered his speech as soon as he wrote the name of his infant son John, on a tablet [vs 62-64]. But Gabriel prophesied not only John' s birth, but his adult ministry as well.

So how do we explain this. Did Gabriel lie? When Zachariah's ability to speak was restored, the prophecy had begun to take place. His son had been born, and he indicated that his name was to be "John". But the prophecy about John's future ministry did not come true until after Zachariah's sight was restored.

By the same token, could it also be the case that the contemporaries of Jesus ("this generation") experienced the beginning of Christ's prediction ---- the destruction of the temple, and perhaps a few more of the predicted events, but they did not live to see all of them come to pass? It seems that the aorist tense of the Greek verb "γινομαι" allows for this possibility.

For those who desire a technical explanation of the Greek, I offer some excerpts from a short article by Royce Gordon Gruenler, found in Basics of Biblical Greek (William D. Mounce) at the beginning of Chapter 22, page 189.

The aorist tense is the indefinite tense that states only the fact of the action without specifying its duration. When the aorist describes an action as a unit event it may accentuate one of three possibilites, as, imagine a ball that has been thrown:

1. Let fly (inceptive or ingressive)
2. Flew (constative or durative)
3. Hit (culminative or telic)

These aspects of the indefinite aorist may shed some light on a perplexing saying of Jesus in his Olivet discourse (Mark 13:30 and parallels), "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly no pass away until all these things γενηται." ... If we view the verb as an ingressive aorist and translate it from the perpective of initiated action, the saying may be rendered, "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things begin to come to pass." ....

[RickC]

Paidion, et al

You've raised very interesting points wrt the Greek, Don!
You also brought up several other things...perhaps "asides" to the thread topic.

Like Mike, it might be a while till I can reply in detail. I hope to by the weekend.

Briefly for now....
One of the "asides" you importantly directed our attention to was:
"How did the Jews [of Jesus' day] reckon time in terms of an event or the events in one's life?"
My short answer is:
"According to the full life lived and/or the ultimate end toward which sequences of an event {or events} unfold or are transpiring."

The beginning is unseparated from the end: The end can be said to be "occurring" before its actual chronological arrival. This, of course, goes against our modern non-Jewish understanding of linear events in/of time. The Jews had a much more all-encompassing holistic way of seeing how things occur-as-sequence(s). No deed or action is seen in isolation from an other {the whole life lived}. One biblical sentence perfectly illustrates this: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end." In eschatology, and especially in apocalyptic, the "Already/Not-Yet" actions of God are seen in both testaments, and in the text I selected....

Related to this is Paul's "adding up time" in terms of his Jerusalem visits {comparing Galatians and Acts}. Three years after his conversion he went up to Jerusalem and met Peter and James, Ga 1:18. Fourteen years later, he visited Jerusalem again, Ga 2:1. But actually, it was eleven years later in our reckoning of chronology {I did a study on this year's ago in trying to pinpoint exactly when these visits happened in Paul's life, comparing Galatians & Acts}. My point is: Paul measured or reckoned time from: three years after his conversion and fourteen years after his conversion {but this would be eleven years after the three year visit to us}. We would say, "Eleven years after this I went up again to Jerusalem" {but Paul said "Fourteen," Ga 2:1}.

Taking into account the Bible's "Already/Not-Yet" theme {there are so many examples in both testaments!}, Paul's "oddball" {foreign to us} way reckoning of events-of-time, and what you had to say wrt the Greek; I think we have some stuff to work with re: biblical prophecy and our text.

Am I making sense? Thanks for reading,