HISTORIC PRE-MILLENIALIST FUTURISM --- Early Testimony

[_Paidion]

[Post duplicated by mistake]

[Guest]

Thomas pasted:

And finally the author and mover of this teaching, who was called Coracion, in the hearing of all the brethren that were present, acknowledged and testified to us that he would no longer hold this opinion, nor discuss it, nor mention nor teach it, as he was fully convinced by the arguments against it.

...Sounds like they were childishly divisive about such matters even then.

Thanks for posting these quotes Thomas.

[Guest]

Hola Paidon:

Thomas, I was unable to find among the many quotes you offered any suggestion among these writers which indicated that the great tribulation, the arise of antichrist, or the coming of Christ was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

" the coming of Christ was fulfilled in 70 A.D. "

I'm an orthodox Preterist (OP) and I don't believe that! Thats setting the bar too high as this is a Full Pret belief and they , and the dispensationalist didn't appear before 1820.

1. I'm trying , by these quotes , to show that the eschatological view of the early fathers is not a simple matter. That ther was as much a diversity of views as there is now , and that they cannnot be easily catagorized. There simply was NO common view. I do not deny that many were premill , however , many were not. And views on the antichrist are not a relieable determinant.

For example this from Dionysius EPISTLE XI.--TO HERMAMMON

"And to John a revelation is made in like manner: "And there was given unto him," he says, "a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemy; and power was given unto him, and forty and two months." And one finds both things to wonder at in Valerian's case"

He was definately not a premill and not a preterist (see quotes above) as he saw the antichrist in his own time. (Does that make him an historicist ?) So did Cyprian and he was a premill.

2. I'm trying by these post to show that many saw AD70 as a fullfillment of the Olivet discourses to an extent much more than just that of the distruction of the temple Matt.24 1-2 as everyone believes , but they saw it as being much more as at least fullfilled to verse 22 , which is preterist. They were looking at it as the great trib. and that they saw it as the vengence of God.(both orthodox preterist views)

As when Origen quotes Luke 21 "when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed about with armies, then shall ye know that the desolation thereof is nigh." This goes far beyond the prediction of the temple destruction and into the trib. (and this from a study of Matt.) or as Eusebius says after speaking of Josephus:

"It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

And there is your link with the trib.


3. The quote I gave about James was largely because of the language he used. The "about to come on the clouds of heaven." is OT language for a coming in judgement and NOT the second coming. This is reinforced by Hegesippus' linking it to Vespasian and AD 70.
This of course is an OP view and I can understand your seeing it differently.

Thomas

I find it interesting that authors such as Clement in his de Principas , can write extensively on the end times , speaking of the second coming , ressurection and judgement , and yet have not one word about the trib. or the antichrist or the millenium.

[Guest]

Hola Christopher:

People don't change...Technology changes.

Thomas