institutional church?

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dizerner

Re: institutional church?

Post by dizerner » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:49 am

Why should a Pastor of a Church be earning a wage that far eclipses the average parishoner?
Is this the point of contention? Because that seems a reasonable objection. I think the abuses we see all around us have maybe increased our awareness. If a people simply love their pastor, I'd think they'd be honored to provide for him, rather than need to be commanded. But if a pastor is "fleecing" the sheep, those sheep need to stop letting themselves be taken advantage of.

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Homer
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Re: institutional church?

Post by Homer » Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:18 pm

Hi Brenden,

You wrote:
Besides, an "elder" in the first century was just that "old."
I have heard this before. How would you support that from scriptures? I have understood the elder to be "old" (mature) spiritually rather than chronologically.

Be blessed, Homer

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TheEditor
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Re: institutional church?

Post by TheEditor » Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:21 pm

Why should a Pastor of a Church be earning a wage that far eclipses the average parishoner?


Is this the point of contention? Because that seems a reasonable objection. I think the abuses we see all around us have maybe increased our awareness. If a people simply love their pastor, I'd think they'd be honored to provide for him, rather than need to be commanded. But if a pastor is "fleecing" the sheep, those sheep need to stop letting themselves be taken advantage of.


Hi Dizerner,

In my opinion, this is the bare minimum. It should go without saying that a Pastor should not "fleece" the sheep. But it is far more insidious than that (by insidious I mean in the proper definition of the word). I believe that we have adopted and allowed Western norms of commerce and rulership to become the defacto or default way of running what we call "church" to the point that people are actually horrified when you say that you do not belong to a "church", meaning a building that accommodates many people and has coordinated programs and activities and a paid staff and a salaried Pastor, and that you believe that God's spirit can run things just fine without such an arrangement. By saying this I do not mean to imply that God cannot work within an arrangement like a "church"; but just that he has no need of our Western Ecclesiasticism or our Industrial and Post-Industrial Age business models for "running" his church. It is completely an accretion.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Paidion
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Re: institutional church?

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:18 pm

On the issue of a "paid ministry," I agree with Brenden and JR (I bet he never thought we'd agree on anything).

...You received without paying; give without pay. (Matthew 10.8 ESV)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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TheEditor
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Re: institutional church?

Post by TheEditor » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:42 pm

Hi Homer,

I didn't notice your question before. Looks like we posted at about the same time. :D Anyway, I do believe that the so-called "spiritual qualifications" would come before the physical age, since, as we all know, with age does not necessarily come wisdom. However, given that it's basic meaning throughout Scripture is "older man", one could hardly imagine a young man filling this position. That, coupled with the fact that they were in a heavily Jewish-influenced birthing pool, I look at the requirements for being on the Sanhedrin, and note that they were to be of advanced age. I can't recall off hand where I read it before, but I recall reading somewhere that to be considered "older" in the Jewish mind, required one to be at least 50 and more likely approaching 60 years of age. If that is true, then it becomes obvious that they would not only have more leisure time to shepherd, but might need to have some of life's needs taken care of for them. I still stand by my comments to Dizerner earlier regarding the whole arrangement.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: institutional church?

Post by dizerner » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:43 am

Let's remember too, Paul said to Timothy "Let no one look down on your youthfulness." I agree with Homer here that it's spiritual maturity. 1 Tim 3 is a rather long list of qualifcations and doesn't mention being old. I don't think Paul was tempted to pattern after his old Jewish religious synagogues, whatever his inspirations from his old faith might have been.

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Homer
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Re: institutional church?

Post by Homer » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:31 am

Additionally Paul appears to have been a member of the Sanhedrin at a relatively young age.

In his book "Biblical Eldership" (300+ pages on the subject) Alexander Strauch came to the conclusion that the meaning is primarily maturity in the faith and says that presbyteros bears the meaning of both "older man" and the official sense of community leader (p. 314, notes).

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mattrose
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Re: institutional church?

Post by mattrose » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:10 am

Good leaders tend to have some years of experience behind them, so it is no surprise that the term 'elders' was used as a label for the role. But there's no need to absolutize the norm. There are exceptions to most rules b/c rules are simple and concrete and real life is complex and fluid.

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Paidion
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Re: institutional church?

Post by Paidion » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:15 am

I don't doubt that the word "πρεσβυτερος" transliterated as "presbyter" in English referred chiefly to a spiritually mature man. And Timothy seems to have been a presbyter, even though he was a young man, as Dizerner pointed out.

Yet, I think that, generally speaking, the presbyters were physically older men. There are several instances in the New Testament, where the word is used in the sense of physically old. Here is one of the clearest:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days," says God, "That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions; your old men shall dream dreams." (Acts 2:17)

The Greek word for "old men" is "πρεσβυτεροι", the nominative plural of "πρεσβυτερος."

Clement (Paul's fellow labourer) in his letter to the Corinthians, written shortly after Paul and Peter's death, tried to correct the sedition against the presbyters. Those who laid the foundation of the sedition were young upstarts who wished to become the presbyters.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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TheEditor
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Re: institutional church?

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:09 pm

I hope I am not giving the impression that I believe age trumps the spiritual qualifications. My point is that the spiritual qualification are in addition to age as qualifiers; not in lieu of age. So, a young man fresh out of seminary may have many of the spiritual qualifications, ie. husband of one wife, not a drunken brawler, etc. But he still is not an "elder". In order for a person to have a good testimony from those on the outside, he has to have some life under his belt, know what I'm saying? Let's face it, when you watch a "talking head" on the news and they are on bloviating about something to do with life and they are like say, 25, don't you find yourself rolling your eyes? My guess would be most Jews living in the first century as Christians wouldn't give two whits what anyone under 30 had to say, and probably would only start to respect someone after age 40.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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