institutional church?

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Paidion
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Re: institutional church?

Post by Paidion » Thu May 28, 2015 9:33 pm

If the churches of our day were patterned after those in the first and second centuries, the problem wouldn't exist. In those churches there was a plurality of elders (overseers). Thus the responsibility did not devolve upon one man. So all elders could be involved in other forms of work to support themselves and their families and still have plenty of time to fulfill their responsibilities in the Christian assembly. Also the elders didn't do all the teaching and preaching in the early church. There was a body ministry. Any member in a local assembly could teach or preach or give a prophecy, etc., to bless the brethren gathered there. (1 Cor 14:26).

I can see that those doing mission work, as was the case with the apostle Paul, would need financial support since he or she would be involved full time in his or her missionary endeavours.
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: institutional church?

Post by dwight92070 » Thu May 28, 2015 9:35 pm

You will know them by their fruits.

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Re: institutional church?

Post by dwight92070 » Thu May 28, 2015 10:44 pm

Tell me Paidon, are you part of a local church or a home church? My wife and I have been part of a home church that meets in our pastor's home each Sunday morning. We started going there at Christmas time in 2001. At that time, 4 of our 5 children joined us, but because they are all young adults, they have gone on to other churches. We met and got married in a traditional charismatic non-denominational church, where we attended for 19 years. But I was looking for something that I felt was more in line with the churches of the New Testament. So in 1991, we left and tried to plug into about 7 different churches, all traditional. over the next 10 years.

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Paidion
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Re: institutional church?

Post by Paidion » Fri May 29, 2015 12:21 pm

Yes, Dwight. I am part of a local assembly.
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Re: institutional church?

Post by jriccitelli » Sat May 30, 2015 8:11 pm

I knew I could expect a good conversation on this forum. I don't want what i said taken the wrong way, to clarify, I don't mind if anyone is given support by a Church body or individual members, that's our perogative. But when a servant is given leadership or control of any sort over the one paying them - that is backwards and illogical. If we need labels, Jesus and the disciples Paul speaks of receiving pay or comfort, I have long understood to be 'evangelists' and 'missionaries' (even preachers, but as I clarified before: to preach or to shepherd are two 'different' verbs), not what became an office of 'pastors' (not some man who stands in a pulpit week after week year after year...). I have long wished we could employ missionaries at our church to work part or full time in our own neighborhoods, but these, like hired hands, don't lord over anyone or make rules, or make policies, or lead the Churches, the elders and unpaid body of believers should be able to make the decisions themselves. If a 'shepherd' does the work of an evangelist and or missionary, teacher even, and serves the people well, pay him, I don't care what you call him, but allowing the position to rule over, make decisions for the body, is what is backwards, and it creates the idea and message of a man ruling over us rather than Christ...

dizerner

Re: institutional church?

Post by dizerner » Sun May 31, 2015 12:01 am

JR what about God's shepherds: "for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account."

You say: when a servant is given leadership or control of any sort over the one paying them - that is backwards and illogical

Yet the same verse above says: "Obey your leaders and submit to them."

Is God's order hierarchical or are we all rogue operatives? Shepherding seems a pretty important theme, both in OT and NT.

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dwight92070
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Re: institutional church?

Post by dwight92070 » Sun May 31, 2015 10:52 pm

First Timothy 3:4-5 - It appears there is a hierarchy but not a dictatorship. First Corinthians 11:3 speaks of this too. Also First Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Mark 3:16, John 21:16, 1 Thessalonians 5:12, and the list goes on.

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Re: institutional church?

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:54 am

Nothing says the ones receiving pay, ruled over the others. I said I have no problem supporting anyone at all, or anyone who serves in the Temple, but not anyone making rules, ruling over others, or doctrine. Paying someone to rule over us? Think about it, that is the opposite of servant. It was never to be. I said I have no problem supporting Missionaries, evangelists, preachers, bookkeepers, landscapers, but they do not have authority over our souls. The watchers over my soul I believe belongs to those teaching in the Temple, the doctrine is their duty, to have it clear and correct, as the Gods Word is our Authority. They in submission to His Word, should be careful to teach, or shepherd, according to His Word, no money 'needs' to be involved with that! I think they who do so, should simply be 'very careful as those who will have to give an account' especially if you really believe you should be paid for doing so.

What Tradition seems to have reversed and or missed is that evangelists and possibly traveling Gospel preachers may have been given money, but a role or office receiving a salary or continuous income seems absent.
I believe 'leaders' here is speaking of the elders, bishops, and overseers, not paid 'positions' of authority.

dizerner

Re: institutional church?

Post by dizerner » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:07 am

and:

17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” 1 Tim 5

Sounds pretty pastoral?

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TheEditor
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Re: institutional church?

Post by TheEditor » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:43 am

I think Paul was well aware of what was at stake when he wrote those words. "Muzzling a bull" was cruel because it disallowed a beast of burden from eating. I am not suggesting, nor do I believe Paul was, that a servant to the body who is doing so laboriously should be disallowed from eating or meeting lifes basic necessities. But the fact of the matter is this; Jesus said (in terms of hierarchy) that: "This is not the way among YOU; but whoever wants to become great among YOU must be YOUR minister,  and whoever wants to be first among YOU must be YOUR slave.  Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many." (Matthew 20:26-28) How can a person "lead" from a position of slavish service, and still be cashing a generous check? Besides, an "elder" in the first century was just that "old." Not a 25 year old kid that could still work. Many of these men were long in the tooth and it wouldn't have been easy to do both secular work along with shepherding. And, as Paidion pointed out, if there was a "body" of elders, then it wouldn't fall on one man to do all the work.

The pattern of a leader in the church is that of a slavish servant, not a Lord or Master. Why should a Pastor of a Church be earning a wage that far eclipses the average parishoner? The Protestant church, quite frankly, is far guiltier in this regard than the Catholics these days. Average salary for a Priest is around 30 grand and the average for a Protestant is closer to 50. Besides that, many mega-church leaders make far more untaxable income by the way of the church coffers. I know of many big church Pastors in my area that clear a pretty penny.

I realize that some discard my background because of what I was raised as, but I can honestly say that for all it's problems, they did have a realistic pattern of how the church laborers (if that's a term we want to use) were supported. If a person wants to have a "normal" life and all the toys and trips and etc. that comes with it, that's fine. I believe that is an individual choice. Then get a secular job. Do not do it off the coins of the faithful. By the way, many of us with a "normal" life are still expected to take spiritual care of our own familes, while laboring at secular jobs that yield far less than the average salaried Pastor. Is this right?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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