institutional church?

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dwight92070
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Re: institutional church?

Post by dwight92070 » Wed May 27, 2015 9:12 pm

Now who's getting angry? Obviously you are here to only teach, never to be taught. You are the one who first made a judgment on me, since I was "trotting" out my "pet" verses to justify high paid pastors. You may not be a tare, but if you were, I don't think you would act any differently.

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TheEditor
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Re: institutional church?

Post by TheEditor » Wed May 27, 2015 9:33 pm

No, not angry. Merely bewildered. I'm not sure where you get the opinion that I am here to "teach" anyone? I usually only add something If I feel it is a point that could be made. When I do not post, I am reading and learning from others. You seem to have quite a chip on your shoulder, brother, and I am not sure why? I use terms like "pet theories" and "pet verses" all of the time. For instance, Matthew 24: 3- and on is used by those with a "pet theory" on "end times." They trot these verses out to show how deep in the "time of the end" we are. Now, for others, they see those verses as the "non-sign" that Jesus warned us to not be distracted by. The way one looks at those verses is largely going to be based upon what their eschatological paradigm is. Is this another "sacred cow" that we are not to touch? What are the ground rules here? You seem to be very troubled by a free exchange of thought.

Apparently, you have an emotionaly vested interest in maintiaining the traditional Western view of "the church and it's officers". That's fine.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

Singalphile
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Re: institutional church?

Post by Singalphile » Wed May 27, 2015 10:02 pm

Paul does seem to have mostly (but not necessarily only) food and drink in mind in the passages that dwight92070 referenced:

1 Cor 9 (YLT)

3 My defence to those who examine me in this;
4 have we not authority to eat and to drink?
...6 or only I and Barnabas, have we not authority -- not to work?
7 who doth serve as a soldier at his own charges at any time? who doth plant a vineyard, and of its fruit doth not eat? or who doth feed a flock, and of the milk of the flock doth not eat?
...9 for in the law of Moses it hath been written, `thou shalt not muzzle an ox treading out corn;' for the oxen doth God care?
10 or because of us by all means doth He say [it]? yes, because of us it was written, because in hope ought the plower to plow, and he who is treading [ought] of his hope to partake in hope.
11 If we to you the spiritual things did sow -- great [is it] if we your fleshly things do reap?
12 if others do partake of the authority over you -- not we more? but we did not use this authority, but all things we bear, that we may give no hindrance to the good news of the Christ.
13 Have ye not known that those working about the things of the temple -- of the temple do eat, and those waiting at the altar -- with the altar are partakers?
14 so also did the Lord direct to those proclaiming the good news: of the good news to live.
...18 What, then, is my reward? -- that proclaiming good news, without charge I shall make the good news of the Christ, not to abuse my authority in the good news;

1 Timothy 5:17-18 (YLT)

17 The well-leading elders of double honour let them be counted worthy, especially those labouring in word and teaching,
18 for the Writing saith, `An ox treading out thou shalt not muzzle,' and `Worthy [is] the workman of his reward.'


My NIV says that verse 18 is quoted from Luke 10:7 (YLT): "And in that house remain, eating and drinking the things they have, for worthy [is] the workman of his hire; ...."

I don't really know, but it seems like the idea of a regular salary like what we're used to might have been very rare or unheard of back then.

According to some very brief google searches, the average yearly salary for U.S. pastors is reported in the $25,000-$70,000 range. But I can imagine that it's very difficult to calculate the real amount for various reasons.

In any case, I agree that one shouldn't be legalistic or condemnatory about elders/pastors/missionaries who receive a salary if that is how those whom they serve choose to support them.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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TheEditor
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Re: institutional church?

Post by TheEditor » Wed May 27, 2015 10:19 pm

Hi Singal,

Agreed. Keep in mind too that there were real abuses in the Temple arrangement on the part of the Priests officiating, and Paul would have been well aware of that and the potential to stumble Jews if they thought he was lining his coffers. The flesh is weak and any opportunity to line the pockets is going to be a temptation, but such could easily be avoided if the basic needs (food, clothing and shelter) were taken care of in a way so as not to invite abuse. Sure, it's a sacrifice for the "Pastor" (if we are going to use that term) but Jesus said the greatest among you would be your "servant."

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Homer
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Re: institutional church?

Post by Homer » Thu May 28, 2015 12:12 am

Singalphile wrote:
I don't really know, but it seems like the idea of a regular salary like what we're used to might have been very rare or unheard of back then.
As in the parable of the worker who came at the 11th hour I believe the practice in the ANE was for the laborer to be paid each day at the end of the day. Why should we begrudge someone who labors in the word something we take for granted such as a salary they can more or less count on receiving?

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steve
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Re: institutional church?

Post by steve » Thu May 28, 2015 7:58 am

Because that would seem to make the minister an employee of whoever pays his wage,rather than a disinterested a servant of God—like the godly prophets, Jesus and the apostles. and early Christian ministers. The laborer is worthy of his wage, to be sure. However, the one from whom the wage is sought is the man's master. In the ANE, the man who labored in the field and received his wage at the end of the day was selling his service to the one paying him. Ministers are not selling their service to those that they serve. "Freely you have received; freely give."

dizerner

Re: institutional church?

Post by dizerner » Thu May 28, 2015 8:19 am

I can't say how much I respect that conviction in ministry. It saddens me when ministries insist on charging high fees for their materials. I'm not saying they don't have a right to—but some people genuinely are hard up. Another minister I greatly respect is Andrew Wommack who always gave his material for free.

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TheEditor
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Re: institutional church?

Post by TheEditor » Thu May 28, 2015 10:54 am

Hi Homer,

Just to add to what has already been said; To be sure, one can glean alot of moral life lessons in the parables. In the parable you reference, the Master of the workers paralleled Jesus. I'm not sure that I am begrudging Jesus giving his workers anything he feels like giving them (though I would view the "pay" in the parable to be "everlasting life"), but what is wrong with the arrangement I outlined above regarding living with families, or in a travel trailer, or etc? Most men in such a position would have grown children that wouldn't need the space (they'd be off on their own). The only opposition I could anticipate would be from younger ministers that want a "normal life" of a house, a car. fun money and etc. But alot of us don't have those things and we are working at secular jobs full-time. The minister (diakanos) is supposed to be the "servant". We are all ministers (diakanos) but to those that choose a certain role as chief servant, if you will, then with that comes certain sacrifices it would seem.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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dwight92070
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Re: institutional church?

Post by dwight92070 » Thu May 28, 2015 8:39 pm

Hello all, I have a few words of exhortation today.

1. Those of you who say that a pastor should not get paid, because it would be too much of a temptation for him, what about your job, assuming you have a "secular" job?
What scripture do you use to justify taking a salary at your "secular" job? A worker is worthy of his wages? Don't muzzle the ox while he is threshing? Being Christians, isn't all our work the Lord's work, working as unto Him? Why would your salary from your "secular" job not be a temptation for you? I read one comment that pastors should only be given food, clothes, and shelter, so they don't get tempted. Is that what you do on your job? Do you only take enough pay from your "secular" job to provide for food, clothes, and shelter and then refuse the rest? Or maybe you should take no salary at all from your "secular" job, but just trust God to provide for everything. Why is it that you can never trust a pastor with a salary, but if you get a salary, that's different?

2. As far as Paul not taking money for his preaching, there is no Biblical evidence that he did this in any church, except in Corinth, probably because of their poverty. In fact, he praises the church in Philippi for sending gifts to him "more than once". Philippians 4:15-19

3, Look at 1 Corinthians 9:8 "Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working?" The obvious implication here is that many, if not all, spiritual leaders, DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT WORK. Of course Paul did not use this right, in Corinth. But he never instructs all spiritual leaders to do the same as he did in Corinth. But if a pastor ends up with a church of poor people, he may choose to do the same thing that Paul did.

4. Who would want to put a stumbling block in front of God's servants? Who would want to make it MORE difficult for pastors to shepherd their flock, so their time would be consumed and their energy spent on working at a job outside of the church? Who wants to BE SURE that your pastor is living a sacrificial life, so that he won't be tempted and become proud? My brothers, this is the work of the devil, the enemy of our souls and the enemy of the church.

5. We all know that there has been plenty of abuse among spiritual leaders with money. But we must not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
"But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another." 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 Pastors are to be "free from the love of money" 1 Timothy 3:3 but it is not our job to keep them poor, so they won't be tempted. They deserve to get their living from the gospel, just as much as you and I deserve a paycheck from our jobs.

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TheEditor
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Re: institutional church?

Post by TheEditor » Thu May 28, 2015 9:23 pm

Hi Dwight,

It occurred to me as I read your challenge, that it would be fruitless for me to entertain your questions on this subject anymore. I say this for the following reasons:

a) You have already made up your mind

b) You are not open to viewing this matter in a different light other than that which you are comfortable

c) You have already accused anyone that sees this differently from you as being deluded of Satan "this is the work of the devil, the enemy of our souls and the enemy of the church."

d) You believe that there is no difference between secular work and service to the church

e) You must have emotional reasons to cling to this notion so rigidly, and those cannot be undone unless you are willing to entertain a contrary thought

I will leave it to others more gifted than I to help you sort this through.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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