The Narrow Path Ministries

Origen, Homilies on Matthew, Homily 46, PG 13:1667 (ante A.D. 254)

"When heretics show us the canonical Scriptures, in which every Christian believes and trusts, they seem to be saying: 'Lo, he is in the inner rooms [ie., the word of truth] ' (Matt 24.6). But we must not believe them, nor leave the original tradition of the Church, nor believe otherwise than we have been taught by the succession in the Church of God.", in CON, 392

Tertullian, On Prescription against the Heretics, 32 (c.A.D. 200)

"But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men, a man, moreover, who continued stedfast with the apostles.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 7:16 (post A.D. 202)

"For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings, in order to establish the heresy.", in ANF,II:553-554

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4, 33:8 (inter A.D. 180-199)

"True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God].", in ANF,I:508

Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 4:2 (A.D. 350)
But the children of heretics, by their good words and smooth tongue, deceive the hearts of the innocent, disguising with the name of Christ as it were with honey the poisoned arrows of their impious doctrines: concerning all of whom together the Lord saith, Take heed lest any man mislead you. This is the reason for the teaching of the Creed and for expositions upon it.", in NPNF2, VII:19

Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, 12:36 (inter A.D. 356-359)

"And, O wretched heretic! you turn the weapons granted to the Church against the Synagogue, against belief in the Church's preaching, and distort against the common salvation of all the sure meaning of a saving doctrine.", in NPNF2,IX:227

Basil, Epistle To the Canonicae, 52:1 (A.D. 370)

"To refuse to follow the Fathers, not holding their declaration of more authority than one's own opinion, is conduct worthy of blame, as being brimful of self-sufficiency.", in NPNF2,VIII:155

Ephraem, Adv. Haeres. (ante A.D. 373)

"While (the sects) mutually refute and condemn each other, it has happened to truth as to Gideon; that is, while they fight against each other, and fall under wounds mutually inflicted, they crown her. All the heretics acknowledge that there is a true Scripture. Had they all falsely believed that none existed, some one might reply that such Scripture was unknown to them. But now that have themselves taken away the force of such plea, from the fact that they have mutilated the very Scriptures. For they have corrupted the sacred copies; and words which ought to have but one interpretation, they have wrested to strange significations. Whilst, when one of them attempts this, and cuts off a member of his own body, the rest demand and claim back the severed limb....It is the church which perfect truth perfects. The church of believers is great, and its bosom most ample; it embraces the fulness (or, the whole) of the two Testaments", in FOC, I:377-378

Maximinus (Arch-Arian Heretic), Debate with Maximinus,1 (c.A.D. 428)

"If you produce from the divine scriptures something that we all share, we shall have to listen. But those words which are not found in the scriptures are under no circumstance accepted by us, especially since the Lord warns us, saying, In vain they worship me, teaching human commandments and precepts'(Mt 5:19) ",in AAOH,188

Cassian, John, Incarnation of the Lord,6:5 (c.A.D. 429/430)

"Therefore, as I said above, if you had been a follower and assertor of Sabellianism or Arianism or any heresy you please, you might shelter yourself under the example of your parents, the teaching of your instructors, the company of those about you, the faith of your creed. I ask, O you heretic, nothing unfair, and nothing hard. As you have been brought up in the Catholic faith, do that which you would do for a wrong belief. Hold fast to the teaching of your parents. Hold fast the faith of the Church: hold fast the truth of the Creed: hold fast the salvation of baptism.” in NPNF2,XI:593-594

While it is true enough that some of these quotes were from the Catholic church, rest assured that some were not. The whole point being our faith does not rest upon what man says. Even Paul when speaking to the immature Corinthian church admonished them for following particular Christian men. We are not interested in man's wisdom (1 Cor 2:5) The full preterist does not believe church fathers can be used to prove any doctrine. Nor can church fathers be used to disprove any doctrine. These are but the creeds of men and there are many difference among the church fathers if one is willing to search carefully. The argument is, "What do the Scriptures teach?" We are not interested in what the UNINSPIRED creeds or church fathers teach. To depart from the Scriptures and let tradition have its rule in ANY SMALL WAY is a mistake many are making today...

Blessings, Ted

Amen, Ted

Amen!

Lady Sower~

These quotes were nothing to do with the present day teaching of an infallible transmission of truth through bishops. They were a practical argument against the gnostics, and actually assume a church that is not centralized. The argument goes like this - we have all these different churches in different areas, founded often by different apostles, and yet united in the faith. Therefore they must have received and preserved the same faith independently, and therefore what they hold in common must be from the apostles.
This argument wouldn't have worked past the fourth century when the regional churches were often no longer holding the same faith, and when centralization was forcing conformity.

dean198 wrote:These quotes were nothing to do with the present day teaching of an infallible transmission of truth through bishops. They were a practical argument against the gnostics, and actually assume a church that is not centralized. The argument goes like this - we have all these different churches in different areas, founded often by different apostles, and yet united in the faith. Therefore they must have received and preserved the same faith independently, and therefore what they hold in common must be from the apostles.
This argument wouldn't have worked past the fourth century when the regional churches were often no longer holding the same faith, and when centralization was forcing conformity.

Yes, and some of these were even gnostics...

“Greek philosophy purges the soul, and prepares it beforehand for the reception of faith, on which the truth builds up the edifice of Gnosis.” (Clement of Alexandria, xia iii).

Clement, who is honored as a saint by the Roman Church, wrote volumes on the “Gnostic” whom he called the "true Christian." He stated, in Stromata 7:1, The Gnostic alone is truly pious...The true Christian is a Gnostic!”
He also explained “Thus philosophy was necessary to the Greeks for righteousness, until the coming of the Lord. And now it assists towards true religion is a kind of preparatory training for those who arrive at faith by way of demonstration. For ‘Thy foot shall not stumble’ if thou attribute to Providence all good, whether it belong to the Greeks or to us. For God is the source of all good things; of some primarily, as of the old and New Testament; of others by consequence, as of philosophy. But it may be, indeed, that philosophy was given to the Greeks immediately and primarily, until the Lord should call the Greeks. For philosophy was a ‘schoolmaster’ to bring the Greek mind to Christ, as the law brought the Hebrews. Thus philosophy was a preparation, paving the way towards perfection in Christ.” Clement of Alexandria (c.200), Stromateis, I.v.28

Tertullian writes, “Wretched Aristotle! Who taught them dialectic, that art of building up and demolishing, so protean in statement, so far-fetched in conjecture, so unyielding in controversy, so productive of disputes; self-stultifying, since it is ever handling questions but never settling anything… what is there in common between Athens and Jerusalem? What between the Academy and the Church? What between heretics and Christians?... away with all the projects for a ‘Stoic,’ a Platonic’ or a ‘dialectic’ Christianity! After Christ Jesus we desire no subtle theories, no acute inquiries after the gospel…” (Tertullian (c.160-240) De praescriptione haereticorum (c.200) ,vii).

AUGUSTINE: CONFESSIONS
Book 7 CHAPTER IX
13. And first of all, willing to show me how thou dost "resist the proud, but give grace to the humble," and how mercifully thou hast made known to men the way of humility in that thy Word "was made flesh and dwelt among men," thou didst procure for me, through one inflated with the most monstrous pride, certain books of the Platonists, translated from Greek into Latin. And therein I found, not indeed in the same words, but to the selfsame effect, enforced by many and various reasons that "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." That which was made by him is "life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shined in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." Furthermore, I read that the soul of man, though it "bears witness to the light," yet itself "is not the light; but the Word of God, being God, is that true light that lights every man who comes into the world." And further, that "he was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." But that "he came unto his own, and his own received him not. And as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believed on his name"--this I did not find there.

No indeed, he found it only with the Platonists! As per his own Confession!

Paul

Paul Pierac wrote:Yes, and some of these were even gnostics...

“Greek philosophy purges the soul, and prepares it beforehand for the reception of faith, on which the truth builds up the edifice of Gnosis.” (Clement of Alexandria, xia iii).

You have determined from this quote that Clement of Alexandria was a gnostic? QUITE THE CONTRARY! He opposed Gnosticism. The word "gnosis" in your quote is simply the Greek word for "knowledge".

In the introductory note to Clement of Alexandria, we read this in the Ante-Nicene Fathers concerning Clement's Stromata:

The full title of the Stromata, according to Eusebius and Photius, was...
“Titus Flavius Clement’s miscellaneous collections of speculative (gnostic) notes bearing upon the true philosophy.” The aim of the work, in accordance with this title, is, in
opposition to Gnosticism, to furnish the materials for the construction of a
true gnosis, a Christian philosophy, on the basis of faith, and to lead on to this higher knowledge those who, by the discipline of the Paedagogus, had been trained for it.

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Paidion wrote:

Paul Pierac wrote:Yes, and some of these were even gnostics...

“Greek philosophy purges the soul, and prepares it beforehand for the reception of faith, on which the truth builds up the edifice of Gnosis.” (Clement of Alexandria, xia iii).

You have determined from this quote that Clement of Alexandria was a gnostic? QUITE THE CONTRARY! He opposed Gnosticism. The word "gnosis" in your quote is simply the Greek word for "knowledge".

In the introductory note to Clement of Alexandria, we read this in the Ante-Nicene Fathers concerning Clement's Stromata:

The full title of the Stromata, according to Eusebius and Photius, was...
“Titus Flavius Clement’s miscellaneous collections of speculative (gnostic) notes bearing upon the true philosophy.” The aim of the work, in accordance with this title, is, in
opposition to Gnosticism, to furnish the materials for the construction of a
true gnosis, a Christian philosophy, on the basis of faith, and to lead on to this higher knowledge those who, by the discipline of the Paedagogus, had been trained for it.

Thus my point. How do you separate the two, as both have their origins in Hellenistic beliefs?

Paul

karenprtlnd wrote:Pierac's studies themselves have shown to be so extensive, with a kind of focused suffering at its very foundation, that it has been hard to ignore. Contrasted by merely incessant interuptions of sudden subjective argument, which is the exibited "style" throughout the forum, I just wanted to say, that these personal studies, compiled by many on the forum, have not gone unnoticed.

Labels are often uses to dismiss that which can not be explained away with logic and truth. So what specific example can you offer? You will not hurt my feelings, as my research is just that, research. I think the word you are looking for is "mystery." I'm familiar with your doctrine that attempts to explain all you do not understand as a 'mystery.' I'm cool with that but don't label me while I search for the truth.

Paul

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