THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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Paidion
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THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by Paidion » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:55 pm

I know there have been many discussions in the past concerning penal substitution. However, I would like to make one more contribution:

What would you think of a human father whose younger son committed a violent crime, but who punished his innocent older son “in his place” and was thereby “satisfied” so that he could let the younger son go scot free? Then... concerning our own wrongdoing, did someone actually “take our place” and presumably our punishment?

George MacDonald put it this way:
They say first, God must punish the sinner, for justice requires it; then they say he does not punish the sinner, but punishes a perfectly righteous man instead, attributes his righteousness to the sinner, and so continues just. Was there ever such a confusion, such an inversion of right and wrong! Justice could not treat a righteous man as an unrighteous; neither, if justice required the punishment of sin, could justice let the1 sinner go unpunished. To lay the pain upon the righteous in the name of justice is simply monstrous. No wonder unbelief is rampant. Believe in Moloch if you will, but call him Moloch, not Justice. Be sure that the thing that God gives, the righteousness that is of God, is a real thing, and not a contemptible legalism. Pray God I have no righteousness imputed to me. Let me be regarded as the sinner I am; for nothing will serve my need but to be made a righteous man, one that will no more sin.


If that is the case, some may ask, “Was it necessary then for Jesus, the Son of God to die? Yes, certainly it was necessary, or He would not have undergone death. He prayed to the Father, “O my Father, if possible let this cup of suffering and death pass from me.(Matt 26:39). And the Father didn't release His Son from suffering and death. So obviously it was not only necessary for Jesus to suffer and die, but impossible for it to be otherwise—that is, if the purpose of God were to be realized.

So clearly it was necessary. But WHY was it necessary for the Son of God to die? Peter, Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews answer that question plainly:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Many cannot accept these reasons for the death of the Messiah. They make statements such as, “No one can be sinless! So it must be the case that God IMPUTES righteousness to me because of Christ's death.” No, that is not the case at all. It does not follow that through His death the Anointed One of God imparted to us “imputed righteousness.” Rather, through His death, He made possible ACTUAL righteousness. The attainment of this righteousness is a process. This process is known as “salvation from sin,” and continues throughout our lives. The process ends in the day of Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul put it this way:

I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

So in the day of Jesus Christ, the process will be complete for all those in whom the process has begun, and who continue in it, coöperating with the enabling grace that God made available through the death of His Son.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

commonsense
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by commonsense » Sun May 02, 2021 11:21 pm

Paidion wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:55 pm
Many cannot accept these reasons for the death of the Messiah. They make statements such as, “No one can be sinless! So it must be the case that God IMPUTES righteousness to me because of Christ's death.”
Paidion, you're right. I think belief in the statement above is because of the Levitical law. It was condemned for a reason, and we are not to return to it. But many bring it back into their theology. Instead of sacrificing the animal, they put Jesus in it's place and preach the same message.

steve7150
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by steve7150 » Sat May 08, 2021 7:42 pm

Paidion, you're right. I think belief in the statement above is because of the Levitical law. It was condemned for a reason, and we are not to return to it. But many bring it back into their theology. Instead of sacrificing the animal, they put Jesus in it's place and preach the same message.








This Levitical Law was given by God and part of it included animal sacrifices which were a penal substitution for sin so this concept did exist for 1,500 years prior to Jesus. Another possibility is that Jesus being called the second Adam perhaps had to undo the sin that came into the world by one man that being Adam
In 1st Peter & 1st Timothy it says Christ gave himself a ransom for all & this sounds like Christ paid a price to purchase us from someone or something.

commonsense
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by commonsense » Sat May 08, 2021 9:36 pm

steve7150 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 7:42 pm
This Levitical Law was given by God and part of it included animal sacrifices which were a penal substitution for sin so this concept did exist for 1,500 years prior to Jesus.
Steve, the Levitical law was not given to Israel by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.(The One True God).

Galatians 21-31 "For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai ( The Levitical law) which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar."

This is symbolic for Egypt and their pagan ways.
Nevertheless what does Scripture say? Cast out the bondwoman and her son."

This is why the prophets are preaching a different message.

Isaiah: " Bring no more futile sacrifices, incense is an abomination to Me."
" Cease to do evil and learn to do good and your sins will be as white as snow."
'Let the wicked man forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him ,and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."
steve7150 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 7:42 pm
In 1st Peter & 1st Timothy it says Christ gave himself a ransom for all & this sounds like Christ paid a price to purchase us from someone or something.
"

Jesus gave His life to teach us the truth.

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darinhouston
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by darinhouston » Sat May 08, 2021 10:07 pm

1Sa 15:22

But the army took from the plunder some of the sheep and cattle - the best of what was to be slaughtered - to sacrifice to the LORD your God in Gilgal."

Then Samuel said, "Does the LORD take pleasure in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as he does in obedience? Certainly, obedience is better than sacrifice; paying attention is better than the fat of rams.


The problem was that neither the law nor the sacrifices could save them. No one could or can be perfectly obedient. Paul said when the law came, it slayed him. Once he knew what was expected, he knew how deficient he was. Only Christ can bridge that gap. Not by the sacrificial nature of his death, but in its being willfully and obediently given even in his perfection. His love and the power of his resurrection to prove to the devil and his demons that death held no power over Christ's own god-given authority and to us of a perfect example of a perfect life lived perfectly even to the end to empower us through the spirit is what saves us if we will but "stay on his team." He is the lord with all the power and without him, we remain dead spiritually and eventually die forever.

steve7150
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by steve7150 » Sun May 09, 2021 7:11 am

Steve, the Levitical law was not given to Israel by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.(The One True God).

Galatians 21-31 "For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai ( The Levitical law) which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar."

This is symbolic for Egypt and their pagan ways.
Nevertheless what does Scripture say? Cast out the bondwoman and her son."







The Law of Moses including Leviticus was given to Moses by God but it was meant for a period of time, at least that's my understanding. Jesus certainly seemed to acknowledge that the Jews around him were subject to the Laws of Moses. I'm not claiming it could save anyone , i think it was a learning lesson to something greater.

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darinhouston
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by darinhouston » Sun May 09, 2021 7:19 am

steve7150 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 7:11 am
Steve, the Levitical law was not given to Israel by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.(The One True God).

Galatians 21-31 "For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai ( The Levitical law) which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar."

This is symbolic for Egypt and their pagan ways.
Nevertheless what does Scripture say? Cast out the bondwoman and her son."







The Law of Moses including Leviticus was given to Moses by God but it was meant for a period of time, at least that's my understanding. Jesus certainly seemed to acknowledge that the Jews around him were subject to the Laws of Moses. I'm not claiming it could save anyone , i think it was a learning lesson to something greater.
It was also a conditional covenant - Israel failed miserably over and over and over and (no surprise to God) which showed us all that "on our own" we cannot do it. So, another way (a better way and a better covenant) was provided. A way that was planned from the beginning in the mind and plans of God and was embodied in and carried out through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

commonsense
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by commonsense » Sun May 09, 2021 10:44 am

steve7150 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 7:11 am
The Law of Moses including Leviticus was given to Moses by God but it was meant for a period of time, at least that's my understanding.
The Law given to Moses never included the Levitical law.
"All were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.( What Jesus was teaching, now known as the Law of Christ). And we are still subject to it.

steve7150
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by steve7150 » Mon May 10, 2021 4:08 pm

The Law given to Moses never included the Levitical law.
"All were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.( What Jesus was teaching, now known as the Law of Christ). And we are still subject to it.








Maybe i missed it but what does this quote have to do with Levitical law?

steve7150
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Re: THE MYTH OF PENAL SUBSTITUTION

Post by steve7150 » Mon May 10, 2021 4:13 pm

Galatians 21-31 "For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai ( The Levitical law) which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar."

This is symbolic for Egypt and their pagan ways.
Nevertheless what does Scripture say? Cast out the bondwoman and her son."





Paul (i think) said the 10 Commandments were death , but that doesn't mean God didn't write it. The Law of Moses was not meant for salvation or even righteousness but as a teaching tool, as i understand it.

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