Abrahamic Salvation?

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:31 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:44 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:17 am
So, under your belief system, Jesus didn't even have to come. We would have been fine with just Abraham.
Yep. that's what the Bible is saying. Had Israel continued to follow Abraham, they would have been blessed.
"Those who bless (honor) Abraham will be blessed."

Dwight - From the time Abraham was called to travel to Canaan to the day of the exodus from Egypt (when Israel became a nation) was around 645 years. Israel didn't even exist as a nation in the time of Abraham. When they left Egypt, they were told to follow Moses, not Abraham, even though they honored the God of Abraham. We are told by Paul that we should follow the FAITH of Abraham and that the promise was given to Abraham and his seed - Christ. Once a person comes to Jesus, they no longer follow Abraham or Moses - that is, if they even did in the first place. Abraham and Moses were just men. We follow Jesus, who is not just a man - He is God in the flesh.

Dwight - The Ezekiel passage is not even relevant to our topic. It is an allegory of how God had mercy on Israel from it's birth and brought it to become a people of beauty and status. God doesn't even mention that they were blessed because they followed Abraham. But Israel rebelled and fell from their position of favor with God. Nowhere do we read that God tells them to return to following Abraham, to be blessed again. Rather He tells them to return to Him - their God.

commonsense
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:58 am

darinhouston wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:07 pm
commonsense, in what sense do you mean this? Can you elaborate? That is troubling to me if I'm understanding you correctly.
Darin, That God condemned all mankind because Adam sinned is a false assumption. That's what I believe anyway. This might be better left to another topic as it can get pretty intense. But, I will say that what is true of God today is what was true of God from the very beginning because God doesn't change.
darinhouston wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:09 pm
But, isn't it the case that the Spirit could not (or at least would not) save anyone until after Christ made the way and began making intercession (even in retrospect for OT Saints whose faith was then "accounted" as righteousness)?


Everyone seems to have their different beliefs on what saved means. But, in reading the Old Testament there's a lot of saving going on. No doubt, the Spirit of God is moving these people. He's communicating with them, raising them up, guiding them, instructing them, planting vineyards, making them fruitful etc.etc.

Moses isn't parting the Red Sea, David isn't defeating Goliath, Joshua isn't ripping down the walls of Jericho and trampling the head of the enemy without the power of the Holy Spirit IN them.
darinhouston wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:09 pm
Isn't our righteousness in fact "Christ's righteousness" applied to our account?

No. Our righteousness is obtained by imitating Jesus, doing what He did and obeying God's commandments.
darinhouston wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:09 pm

Isn't Christ the ONLY way to the Father after the Fall?
The way to God is through the Spirit.
" God is Spirit, and He seeks those to worship Him in Spirit and truth." Worship of the One true God involves obedience to His commands. If you don't come to love God, then you're not going to have a relationship with Him no matter what.
darinhouston wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:09 pm
Do you believe that a pagan who faithfully tried to follow every teaching of Christ would be saved?
" For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things contained in the law are a law unto themselves, showing the work of the law written in their hearts."

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darinhouston
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:54 pm

commonsense wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:58 am
darinhouston wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:07 pm
commonsense, in what sense do you mean this? Can you elaborate? That is troubling to me if I'm understanding you correctly.
Darin, That God condemned all mankind because Adam sinned is a false assumption. That's what I believe anyway. This might be better left to another topic as it can get pretty intense. But, I will say that what is true of God today is what was true of God from the very beginning because God doesn't change.
Where do I start? Do you get your views from Scripture? How do you deal with passages such as this....?

Romans 5
[12] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…. [18] Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness led to justification for all men. [19] For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

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darinhouston
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:01 pm

commonsense wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:58 am
darinhouston wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:09 pm
Isn't our righteousness in fact "Christ's righteousness" applied to our account?

No. Our righteousness is obtained by imitating Jesus, doing what He did and obeying God's commandments.
There is ample apostolic teaching on this - it is one of the most clear things in all of Scripture - do you believe in apostolic authority (not apostolic succession, but the authority of Jesus' appointed apostles themselves)?

Isaiah 64:6 (and quoted in Jude)

We are all like one who is unclean,
all our so-called righteous acts are like a menstrual rag in your sight.
We all wither like a leaf;
our sins carry us away like the wind.

Romans 3

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (although it is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed— 22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 24 But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed. 26 This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus’ faithfulness.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded! By what principle? Of works? No, but by the principle of faith! 28 For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.

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darinhouston
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:03 pm

This topic is considerably more important than ruminations on the Trinity. It is the central tenet of our faith. (coupled with belief that Jesus is the anointed Messiah who was anointed to bring this very message and to be the "way" which we are here discussing.)

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dwight92070
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:15 pm

darinhouston,

Not only do you move my posts to New Topics without my permission, but it appears that someone has erased several of my posts, too. I know for a fact that several of my posts are now gone. I will be complaining to Jarrod Bauman and Steve Gregg. Whoever erased my posts should not even be allowed to continue using this forum, because justice demands that if they erase my posts, then their posts should be erased as well - And they should be banned from using this forum.

Dwight

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darinhouston
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:14 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:15 pm
darinhouston,

Not only do you move my posts to New Topics without my permission, but it appears that someone has erased several of my posts, too. I know for a fact that several of my posts are now gone. I will be complaining to Jarrod Bauman and Steve Gregg. Whoever erased my posts should not even be allowed to continue using this forum, because justice demands that if they erase my posts, then their posts should be erased as well - And they should be banned from using this forum.

Dwight
Dwight, part of moderating a forum is keeping conversations on topic and organized so that the forum is of use to others. That sometimes includes splitting and moving off-topic threads to new topics and relevant forums and the like. When I have done that, I have tried to make appropriate notes so people notice it was done and why. Doing this avoids rabbit trails to derail a topic being discussed but it also enables a new topic to be addressed more directly and fully rather than getting lost in a sea of off-topic responses that are otherwise ignored.

Rest assured, I have not deleted (at least on purpose) any of your posts (though I certainly would like to have done so on a number of occasions). I have noticed from the administration panel that some have been deleted, but I believe you (or other admins) are the only ones able to delete your own posts. If you ever believe that has been done in error (by yourself or otherwise), we'd be happy to try and resurrect them.

FWIW, I am unaware of anything being simply deleted in the history of this forum unless they were overtly abusive or scandalous.

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dwight92070
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:28 pm

Jarrod Bauman said that he will be investigating my missing posts. I will now repeat one of my posts that was erased: It has to do with Thomas. The resurrected Christ told Thomas to put his finger into the holes in His hands and side, which Thomas did. John 20:27-28 When Thomas did that, he said, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus replied, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed?"

What did Thomas believe? He believed that Jesus was his Lord and his God.

Paidon took issue with this in a post that appears to also have been erased. He said that my post proves nothing because Thomas was simply exclaiming, just like someone today would say, "Oh my God."

I told Paidon that if that is what Thomas did, then he would be using the Lord's name in vain, right in front of the Lord Himself! I told him that that is highly unlikely, since the Jews reverence God's name.

Then in another post, which was erased, I mentioned that the apostle Matthew, in his gospel, used the term "kingdom of heaven" in the same place that the other gospels used the term "kingdom of God". The reason was that Matthew was being sensitive to the Jews who were uncomfortable with using the word "God", because they didn't want to be guilty of taking His name in vain. I also mentioned that I myself do not use the Lord's name in that way. I learned as a young child that that was wrong.

Homer also had a post (which was also erased) questioning Paidon's conclusion, agreeing with me that his conclusion was very unlikely.

So it is my conclusion and many others, that Thomas, a hand-picked apostle, was not using God's name in vain, but he was acknowledging that he believed that Jesus was his LORD and his GOD.

Now let's see if that THIEF will erase this post too!

Dwight

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dwight92070
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:17 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:14 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:15 pm
darinhouston,

Not only do you move my posts to New Topics without my permission, but it appears that someone has erased several of my posts, too. I know for a fact that several of my posts are now gone. I will be complaining to Jarrod Bauman and Steve Gregg. Whoever erased my posts should not even be allowed to continue using this forum, because justice demands that if they erase my posts, then their posts should be erased as well - And they should be banned from using this forum.

Dwight
Dwight, part of moderating a forum is keeping conversations on topic and organized so that the forum is of use to others. That sometimes includes splitting and moving off-topic threads to new topics and relevant forums and the like. When I have done that, I have tried to make appropriate notes so people notice it was done and why. Doing this avoids rabbit trails to derail a topic being discussed but it also enables a new topic to be addressed more directly and fully rather than getting lost in a sea of off-topic responses that are otherwise ignored.

Dwight - I was not aware that you are the moderator of the Bible Forum. How could I have missed that after all these years? So, as the moderator, you can unilaterally remove several of my posts, without even asking my permission? I am not against staying on topic. I even commented on how someone went to the Trinity when the topic was "Jesus is God". You said that that was okay, because they were related. Yes, they are related, but there was much to be said about "Jesus is God", without having to add the Trinity.

Rest assured, I have not deleted (at least on purpose) any of your posts (though I certainly would like to have done so on a number of occasions). I have noticed from the administration panel that some have been deleted, but I believe you (or other admins) are the only ones able to delete your own posts. If you ever believe that has been done in error (by yourself or otherwise), we'd be happy to try and resurrect them.

Dwight - Look at all the "Abrahamic Salvation" posts. Do you see any of my posts that I brought up about Thomas and John 20:28, other than the one that I just REPOSTED? NO, THEY ARE GONE! Paidon responded, Homer responded, even you, Darin, responded. You mentioned that we need to get back on topic and you also commented on how the Jews were only sensitive to a specific name for God (as I recall), and that Thomas' reply doesn't fit that bill. ALL OF THOSE POSTS ARE GONE! PAIDON'S, HOMER'S, YOURS, AND MINE. WHY?

Dwight - Yes, please resurrect those posts. By the way, I wouldn't even know how to delete my posts or others. Nor would I attempt to do so.

FWIW, I am unaware of anything being simply deleted in the history of this forum unless they were overtly abusive or scandalous.

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darinhouston
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:24 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:17 pm
Dwight - Yes, please resurrect those posts. By the way, I wouldn't even know how to delete my posts or others. Nor would I attempt to do so.
Slow down, Dwight. No one here has ever or would ever remove a post in a way that justifies you calling them a "THIEF." If it was done, it was an error or a glitch in the system. Moving posts across forums is not trivial and takes a few steps. I do recall that series of posts and -- believe me -- it was the least antagonistic thing you've said on here - in fact, I agreed with your and Homer's response.

I don't see them in the deleted posts listing - perhaps Jarrod can find them - he has tools behind the system (so to speak).

It is a bit too easy to delete posts (in my opinion). That little x does it (right next to the "edit" button). I've done it to my own from time to time, but if several in a thread are missing, it's more likely it was an error in splitting the topic for moving the conversation. We'll see if Jarrod can fix it.

Boy, this has really derailed a very important topic.

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