Abrahamic Salvation?

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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dwight92070
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:59 pm

More accurately, I should say that the Law of Moses technically ended when Christ was crucified, and the curtain in the Holy of Holies was torn in two.

commonsense
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:45 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:56 pm
Today, we are NOT living under the covenant with Abraham or the law of Moses. We are submitted ONLY to Jesus and His new covenant. The law of Moses was definitely God's word to Israel, as long as it was still being observed. But when Christ came, the law of Moses became obsolete and was replaced by something better.
Dwight, there were TWO covenants as stated in Galatians. The one from Mount Sinai ( The Levitical law) and the one given to Abraham.
"Now we are as Isaac was" , children of the Spirit.
The covenant that was given to Abraham was also given to those who came out of Egypt.
"All ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of the Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ. (The Law of Christ). But, some REJECTED this and refused to leave their foreign gods behind ,which is what the Levitical law consists of- requirements of foreign gods.
Isaiah chapter 58 tells you the requirements of the covenant, which are the SAME requirements of the New Covenant, LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF.

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dwight92070
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:32 pm

commonsense wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:45 am


(The Law of Christ). But, some REJECTED this and refused to leave their foreign gods behind ,which is what the Levitical law consists of- requirements of foreign gods.

Dwight - How can we believe anything you say, when you don't even respect the word of God?

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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:46 pm

The Levitical law consists of requirements of foreign gods.

It's the truth Dwight. When Jesus said, "You teach doctrines and commandments of men" and "You follow traditions of men", what do you think he meant?
What doctrines and commandments of men was he referring to? THOSE THAT WERE CAST OUT.

You asked, why the laws and commandments that were given to Abraham aren't clearly stated. It's because things get lost. Books were burned and hidden. Words get added and subtracted, misinterpreted and changed. God isn't dumb. That's why His Law is written in our hearts and minds. It's called the moral code. And as Paul says: the things of God can be clearly seen and understood by the things that are made.

Besides, the law that given to Abraham IS stated by the prophets and elsewhere in the Old Testament.

The Levitical law was faulty, erroneous as you pointed out. God doesn't give people a faulty covenant. If He did, then we wouldn't be able to trust His word. That's why it's now "dead" to us. Yet, it remains in our Bibles and is still preached as the infallible word of God. This is an example of how things get "lost".
Last edited by commonsense on Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dwight92070
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:01 am

commonsense wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:46 pm

But, some REJECTED this and refused to leave their foreign gods behind ,which is what the Levitical law consists of- requirements of foreign gods.
Dwight - The above is YOUR quote! Don't make it look like I said this, because YOU said the above sentence, NOT ME.

It's the truth Dwight. When Jesus said, "You teach doctrines and commandments of men" and "You follow traditions of men", what do you think he meant?

Dwight - He was NOT referring to the law of Moses. We know this because He quoted from that law and commanded people to obey it, until it was fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-20

What doctrines and commandments of men was he referring to? THOSE THAT WERE CAST OUT.

Dwight - You are mistaken. He gave examples of what He meant. For example, all the rules they had about washing when they came from the marketplace. Also they could avoid helping their parents, by instead designating that gift as set apart for God? Mark and Jesus Himself, said that they "did many things such as that" (Mark 7:4 and 13) So, NO, the doctrines, traditions, and commandments of men WERE NOT THE LAW OF MOSES.
THE LAW OF MOSES WAS AND STILL IS THE WORD OF GOD. The law of Moses was not "cast out" - it was fulfilled in Jesus' coming and in His crucifixion.

Dwight - The law itself warns us about what you are doing:

Deuteronomy 4:2 - "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, NOR TAKE AWAY FROM IT, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord you God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 -"Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; YOU SHALL NOT ADD TO NOR TAKE AWAY FROM IT.

Dwight - By "casting out" the law of Moses, you are TAKING AWAY GOD'S WORD. You are basically DELETING at least 4 books of the Old Testament.

You asked, why the laws and commandments that were given to Abraham aren't clearly stated.

Dwight - God is MORE THAN ABLE to preserve His word, which HE HAS DONE. But He didn't choose to preserve the laws He gave to Abraham. OBVIOUSLY, THOSE LAWS WERE EITHER REPEATED IN THE LAW OF MOSES AND THE PROPHETS, PSALMS, ETC., OR THEY WEREN'T NECESSARY FOR THE BENEFIT OF ISRAEL OR THE CHURCH.

That's why His Law is written in our hearts and minds.

Dwight - Yes, He has written His law in our hearts and minds. The problem is that we have other things in our hearts and minds as well - sinful things. So it's TOO EASY to confuse our thoughts and our desires as being His thoughts and His desires and even His laws. Because of that, He has graciously preserved and given us His written word, so we can know what thoughts and desires and laws are OURS and what thoughts and desires and laws are HIS. Jesus gave us an example by His constant reference to: "It is written."

It's called the moral code.

Dwight - It goes Way beyond that. All of the major religions have a moral code, I would assume. His laws now are the New Covenant: Such as: without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins and Jesus' blood was the ONLY FULLY SATISFACTORY sacrifice and offering to cleanse us from our sins, etc.(all of the New Testament truths.)

And as Paul says: the things of God can be clearly seen and understood by the things that are made.

Dwight - What Paul said was: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made."
That's PRIMARILY speaking of understanding that GOD EXISTS, NOT SO MUCH SPEAKING OF HIS INDIVIDUAL LAWS. Therefore, God ADDED TO THAT HIS WRITTEN WORD. If what was "written in our hearts" was sufficient, then God didn't need to give us His written word. But He did, so we know that just having the laws in our hearts was not enough.

Besides, the law that given to Abraham IS stated by the prophets and elsewhere in the Old Testament.

Dwight - If that is, in fact, stated in the prophets and other places in the Old Testament, and I'm not denying it, then apparently He didn't feel it was necessary to elaborate on it, or preserve it.

The Levitical law was faulty, erroneous as you pointed out. God doesn't give people a faulty covenant.

Dwight - Faulty? Yes, because it couldn't eradicate sin. Jesus came to do that. Hebrews 8:7-8 "For if that FIRST COVENANT had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a SECOND."

Dwight- Did you notice that the author of Hebrews ONLY IDENTIFIES TWO COVENANTS, the Mosaic and the New. Even though God DID make a covenant with Abraham, it's not even listed here. That same author pointed out specifically how Jesus is much greater than Abraham: Hebrews 7:7 - "Without any dispute, the lesser is blessed by the greater."

Dwight - Erroneous? NO, and don't say that I pointed that out. Those were your words, not mine.

Yet, it remains in our Bibles and is still preached as the infallible word of God.

Dwight - That's because IT STILL IS the word of God.

This is an example of how things get "lost".

Dwight - No, it's an example of speculation and misinterpretation on your part. The entire New Testament is filled with quotes from the law of Moses and other Old Testament passages. Jesus Himself quoted from the Mosaic law often. If the law of Moses came from foreign gods, as you claim, then we can't trust the New Testament or even Jesus Himself. But I DO trust the New Testament and Jesus AND the Old Testament.

commonsense
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:03 pm

Dwight, I corrected the quote.

I asked, " What doctrines and commandments of men was Jesus referring to?" Those that were cast out.

Jesus did not cast out the Ten Commandments. So, no the're not doctrines and commandments of men.
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:01 am
Dwight - By "casting out" the law of Moses, you are TAKING AWAY GOD'S WORD. You are basically DELETING at least 4 books of the Old Testament.
I'm not taking away God's word. What Jesus cast out was never God's word in the first place. God's word does NOT CHANGE. It has always been the same. "ALL the Law is fulfilled in this- Love others as yourself." The Ten Commandments are an extension of this.
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:01 am
But He didn't choose to preserve the laws He gave to Abraham.
Yes, He did. They were preserved in the prophets, and they are what Jesus was teaching.
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:01 am
His laws now are the New Covenant:
Which is the Golden Rule. Again," ALL the law is fulfilled, even in this- Love others as yourself."
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:01 am
Dwight - Faulty? Yes, because it couldn't eradicate sin.
You're right, it didn't. But this does: "Cease to do evil and learn to do good, and your sins will be as white as snow."
" Let the wicked man forsake his ways and the unrighteous man his thoughts and return to the Lord and He will abundantly pardon."
" If you extend your soul to the hungry and satisfy the afflicted soul, then your light shall dawn in the darkness and your darkness shall be as noonday."
Put on the new man.
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:01 am
Dwight- Did you notice that the author of Hebrews ONLY IDENTIFIES TWO COVENANTS, the Mosaic and the New.
It does identify two covenants, which is what I've been saying, the Levitical law and the one that came through Isaac, who was born of the Spirit.

commonsense
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:21 pm

commonsense wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:03 pm
Dwight, I corrected the quote.

I asked, " What doctrines and commandments of men was Jesus referring to?" Those that were cast out.

Jesus did not cast out the Ten Commandments. So, no the're not doctrines and commandments of men.
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:01 am
Dwight - By "casting out" the law of Moses, you are TAKING AWAY GOD'S WORD. You are basically DELETING at least 4 books of the Old Testament.
I'm not taking away God's word. What Jesus cast out was never God's word in the first place. God's word does NOT CHANGE. It has always been the same. "ALL the Law is fulfilled in this- Love others as yourself." The Ten Commandments are an extension of this.
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:01 am
But He didn't choose to preserve the laws He gave to Abraham.
Yes, He did. They were preserved in the prophets, and they are what Jesus was teaching.
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:01 am
His laws now are the New Covenant:
Which is the Golden Rule. Again," ALL the law is fulfilled, even in this- Love others as yourself."
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:01 am
Dwight - Faulty? Yes, because it couldn't eradicate sin.
You're right, it didn't. But this does: "Cease to do evil and learn to do good, and your sins will be as white as snow."
" Let the wicked man forsake his ways and the unrighteous man his thoughts and return to the Lord and He will abundantly pardon."
" If you extend your soul to the hungry and satisfy the afflicted soul, then your light shall dawn in the darkness and your darkness shall be as noonday."
Put on the new man.
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:01 am
Dwight- Did you notice that the author of Hebrews ONLY IDENTIFIES TWO COVENANTS, the Mosaic and the New.
It does identify two covenants, which is what I've been saying, the Levitical law and the one that came through Isaac, who was born of the Spirit.
If you notice, there are to messages, two covenants being preached in the Old Testament.

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dwight92070
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:46 pm

The Abrahamic covenant and the New Covenant are 2 different covenants. The former was instituted by God with Abraham. The latter was instituted by Jesus with His disciples. Otherwise, why would Jesus Himself say, "This cup which is poured out for you is the NEW COVENANT in my blood."? Jesus would NOT have called it a NEW COVENANT, if it was the same as the Abrahamic covenant.

commonsense
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:40 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:46 pm
The Abrahamic covenant and the New Covenant are 2 different covenants. The former was instituted by God with Abraham. The latter was instituted by Jesus with His disciples. Otherwise, why would Jesus Himself say, "This cup which is poured out for you is the NEW COVENANT in my blood."? Jesus would NOT have called it a NEW COVENANT, if it was the same as the Abrahamic covenant.
Dwight, it was new to those who were hearing it for the first time, those who were raised in other beliefs.
For example, back in the 70's, bell-bottom pants were in vogue. Then,When they they went out of style and for a period of time they were no longer worn. When they came back in style, they were new to those who didn't live back in 70's.

The same thing with the covenants. The covenant that was given to Abraham was "lost", or no longer being taught. The Levitical law was believed to be the law and the covenant of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There are lots of warnings about this kind of thing. " Many will come in My name and teach false words."

Again, the New Testament writers say, " All were baptized into Moses. All ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of the rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ( the Law of Christ).

" Death reigned from Adam to Moses." Death wasn't reigning at the time of Moses because the children of the Spirit had been multiplied. Those who believed in the Law of Christ were more numerous. But, as it says in Galatians, at the time of Jesus, those of the flesh were more numerous that those of the Spirit. This included Israel , which was under the Levitical law.

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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:40 am

Jesus honored Abraham and Moses and the Mosaic law. He did NOT see that law as coming "from foreign gods", as you do. If that was not true, then He would NOT have quoted from it so often, and even commanded obedience to it, until the time came when it was fulfilled.

Consider these words of Jesus in John 5:46-47: "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Jesus did not call it a New Covenant, because it was new to only certain people. It was new to ALL PEOPLE. "A NEW commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." John 13:34 Jesus was not physically seen by all people during Abraham's day, so they could not witness the kind of love that He had for His faithful followers. Nor did they see Him go to the cross, to demonstrate that love.

He said that NEW wine must be put into NEW wineskins. Jesus was not a "revived version" of Abraham. He was far greater than Abraham. He was the long awaited Messiah!

The synagogue worshippers in Capernaum immediately recognized that Jesus' teaching was NEW, for "He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes." Then, when Jesus cast the demon out of a man who happened to be there, "They were all amazed ...saying, 'What is this? A NEW teaching with authority. He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him'".

Everything about Jesus was NEW. Even the officers sent by the chief priests and the Pharisees to arrest Jesus said: "NEVER has a man spoken the way this man speaks." The blind man that Jesus healed said, "Since the beginning of time it has NEVER been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind."

No, the New Covenant NEVER was the same as the Abrahamic covenant.

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