The Narrow Path Ministries

Hebrews 7:23-25 (ESV)
23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,
24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

You might think that this verse passage is fairly simple. But, I'd like to point out that v.25 claims that Christ has a continuing function of interceding, which should be impossible with standard atonement models. It means that either all sin wasn't completely forgiven on the cross, or people continue to sin in heaven, or people continue to exist in sin on earth "always", or some combination of these points.

Doug

Doug,

I'm not seeing the problem. Jesus referred to sin as debt, his sacrifice is sufficient to cover all we owe, we never entirely escape from sin, so His sacrifice keeps covering our debt as we incur more.

So, when everyone has been finally judged, and the saints are in perfectly glorified bodies with no hint of sin, there is still a need to keep covering? Or, we still incur more??

Doug

great question... the bible is clear, no sin in heaven, old order of things will have passed away. i believe the intercession was meant to apply to our earthly life, notice it says "save to the uttermost" (final consummation of salvation), see a soul in heaven is biblically considered "saved," thus clearly has reached the uttermost. the priest's function is not just intercessory however, and could function forever.

The problem is that the verse explicitly says that he ever lives to make intercession. There is no way around it.

Doug

dwilkins wrote:The problem is that the verse explicitly says that he ever lives to make intercession. There is no way around it.

Doug

Hi Doug,

Since we are just brainstorming at this point.

In order to answer this question we must satisfy the elephant in the room, "do Saints in heaven need an intercessor?

Do we somehow lose our humanity once we enter heaven?
Did God somehow reprogram us, making us robots, no freewill or ability to make mistakes ever again?

We are saved inspite of our shortcomings as humans and Paul said this to His audience who experienced the end of that age in Eph 2:

"that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus," (YLT)

We of course know the context of Eph 2; saved by grace. And yet these people are still receiving this GRACE in heaven; the ages are still moving along and seemingly, Yeshua grace still applies TO THEM and therefore He intercedes.

We only remain perfect IN Christ. No one of himself is perfect outside of this necessity. I also don't think it's accurate to say there's no sin in heaven. The sinful Angels resided in heaven, they are not robots either. Sin can be, and was seemingly, found in heaven.

I like this discussion and I think the more ideas (brainstorming) the better, in order to come to the best conclusion, if it's at all possible. I hope we can hold off all judgements until we have all the data in front of us.

God Bless.

dwilkins wrote:The problem is that the verse explicitly says that he ever lives to make intercession. There is no way around it.

Doug

It's funny that you say this when people find a way around everything. I guess first we'd have to prove all intercession is only for sin. I think there's "no way around" the clarity the Bible speaks with about the afterlife containing no defilement of sin. So for me, that's out of the question. With that settled what's next? I see two options. 1. "ever lives" just means he's there whenever we need him (earthly life). 2. "intercession" has applications beyond sin.


here's thayers for the word intercession

1905 evntugca,nw
evntugca,nw; 2 aorist evne,tucon; generally with a dative either of person or of thing;

1. to light upon a person or a thing, fall in with, hit upon, a person or a thing; so often in Attic.

2. to go to or meet a person, especially for the purpose of conversation, consultation, or supplication (Polybius, Plutarch, Aelian, others): with the addition peri, ti,noj, the genitive of person, for the purpose of consulting about a person, Acts 25:24 (R. V. made suit); to make petition: evne,tucon tw/| kuri,w| kai, evdeh,qhn auvtou/, Sap. 8:21; evne,tucon tw/| basilei/ th,n avpo,lusin ... aivtou,menoi, 3 Macc. 6:37; hence, to pray, entreat: u`pe,r with the genitive of person to make intercession for anyone (the dative of the person approached in prayer being omitted, as evident from the context), Rom. 8:21,34; Heb. 7:25, (followed by peri, with the genitive of person, Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 56, 1); ti,ni kata, ti,noj (to plead with one against anyone), to accuse one to anyone, Rom. 11:2, cf. 1 Macc. 8:32; 10:61,63f; 11:25. (Not found in the Septuagint) (Compare: u`perentugca,nw.)*

Well said Brenden!

TheEditor wrote:I think the question is problematic because it infers something that is not being implied. The distinction is being made between the regular priesthood and the priesthood of Jesus. Human priests die. They did die in times past. Jesus does not die so is not limited. This seems to be the thrust of the argument in the passages surrounding, namely that Jesus has no restraints on his priesthood like the Levitical priests did.

Hi Brenden, I'm sure Doug can defend his own post, however, I must point out that you are totally missing the second main clause of the writers point. Everything you have mentioned above is correct but IS NOT without further comment to purpose by the author, in which Doug is referring to against the standard atonement model. Consider the transitional expression (cause and effect) of vs.25:

ὅθεν = hothen

I. from which, whence
A. of the place from which
B. of the source from which a thing is known, from which, whereby
C. of the cause from which, for which reason, wherefore, on which account

(ESV) Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
(NASB) Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
(ASV) Wherefore also he is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
(YLT) whence also he is able to save to the very end, those coming through him unto God -- ever living to make intercession for them.

TheEditor wrote:I think the point is... not that it is saying that the priesthood goes on when there is no longer intercession necessary.

Brenden, I think this is a misrepresentation. Doug's point and the text denotes intercession IS necessary, and Doug's inquiry is to what audience:

- Those coming to salvation
- Those already saved and alive on earth
- Those who currently reside in heaven
- Or a combination of the above

TheEditor wrote:I think you may be assuming a point that is not being made.

I believe Doug's inquiry is valid, and focused on the second main clause of the teaching. Nevertheless, as I reviewed the matter, I'm leaning more towards "those coming to salvation" throughout the ages.

God Bless.