What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Man, Sin, & Salvation
Post Reply
User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:02 pm

Hi JR and Psimmond,

@JR,

i also hold to a 100,000yr old earth


Interesting. The JWs, used to hold to a 49.000 year old earth notion (7 creative days times 7,000 years each), but they dumped that idea. How did you come about yours?

@Psimmond,

You wrote:

Regardless of which one it is, since Adam and Eve did have faith in God


I'm not sure Adam or Eve had "faith" in God. I am not sure angels have "faith" in God. I have toyed with the idea that having faith entails more than "knowing" something (ie, my mother "knows" I am her son, she does not have "faith" that I am). What "faith" would be required if you "know" something? Presumably Adam spoke with God. What are your thoughts?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

User avatar
psimmond
Posts: 438
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:31 pm
Location: Sharpsburg, GA
Contact:

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by psimmond » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:46 pm

I wrote:

Regardless of which one it is, since Adam and Eve did have faith in God


Brenden wrote: I'm not sure Adam or Eve had "faith" in God. I am not sure angels have "faith" in God. I have toyed with the idea that having faith entails more than "knowing" something (ie, my mother "knows" I am her son, she does not have "faith" that I am). What "faith" would be required if you "know" something? Presumably Adam spoke with God. What are your thoughts?
I believe saving faith causes us to repent—to stop sinning and start doing good works in obedience to God. I suspect Adam sinned more than once in his life, but I also suspect that just like you and me, he repented afterwards.
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:07 pm

Hi Psimmond,

For some perspective; I was raised a JW. In that Organizations's soteriology regarding faith, faith is almost considered something that has absolute proof. The general term "faith" as used by most folks is decidely looked down upon. It is almost as though any faith not based on proof is credulity. It wouldn't be stated so bluntly, but that is the take-away.

So, for me, in my years since associating with the WT, I have had to come to a different apprehension of what "faith" constitutes. Faith demands evidence for the mind and a willingness to believe from the heart. In the case of Adam, one could say, I suppose, that he had "faith" that God would do as He said He would (regarding the woman's "seed") without perhaps knowing what that meant. But apparently there are degrees of what is considered faith:

"Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe." (John 20:29)

How did first-century believers know the truth of the Gospel if they were not eye-witnesses of Jesus? Simply put, they knew because the Apostles knew. Likewise, how can a believer today know the truth of the Gospel? Simply put, he can know because the Apostles knew. All "faith" is really second-hand when you think about it I suppose.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by dizerner » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:25 pm

[user account removed]
Last edited by dizerner on Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
psimmond
Posts: 438
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:31 pm
Location: Sharpsburg, GA
Contact:

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by psimmond » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:28 pm

Hi Brenden,
I think we can have faith in God without ever hearing the gospel. Romans 1 and 2 say we can know God exists from creation and we can know right from wrong because of our God-given consciences. Of course Adam had more than this and so did I. With more revelation comes more clarity, but also more accountability.

Regarding angels, when James talked about faith needing to be accompanied by works he said the demons believe, but he used them as an example of faith without works.
Last edited by psimmond on Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen

dizerner

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by dizerner » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:31 pm

[user account removed]
Last edited by dizerner on Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

dizerner

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by dizerner » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:34 pm

[user account removed]
Last edited by dizerner on Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:46 pm

I'm not so sure. What would have happened to Thomas had he not received the irrefutable proof he required?

"But Thomas, one of the twelve, who was called The Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. Consequently the other disciples would say to him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will certainly not believe." (John 20:24-25)

What would Saul of Tarsus have done without being knocked off his....onto his....? ;)

"But Saul, still breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, in order that he might bring bound to Jerusalem any whom he found who belonged to The Way, both men and women." (Acts 9:1-2)

I don't discount the experiential. Nor do I advocate blind faith, for indeed that is credulity. But I do believe that you can accept eyewitness testimony and have it counted as faith. That's all most of us have to go on, No?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

User avatar
psimmond
Posts: 438
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:31 pm
Location: Sharpsburg, GA
Contact:

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by psimmond » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:06 pm

psimmond wrote:The question I'm wrestling with is this: Is "spiritually dead" just another way of referring to those who have not received salvation as a result of placing their faith in God, OR does it refer to Adam and all of his descendants after God caused a supernatural change that has caused every human to be born with a bias or tendency to sin that needs to be supernaturally neutralized by an act of God.
dizerner wote: Why can't we just say "AND" instead of "OR."
I know that I wasn't very clear, but I used "or" because I was pondering whether or not those who have not received salvation really are born with a bias/tendency to sin, or if they are born morally neutral and that bias develops over time. I guess the same question Alexander asked here: http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen

dizerner

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by dizerner » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:28 pm

[user account removed]
Last edited by dizerner on Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Return to “Anthropology, Hamartiology, Soteriology”