Is discipleship possible before being born again?

[Paidion]

The main point, RiC, is that Jesus said:

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not discount his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

I think some of the things you mentioned are in no way a test of discipleship. It's not about believing certain things about hell, or about demons or Satan, creeds, or subscribing to particular theological concepts such as the Trinity, penal substitution, eternal security, annihilation of the lost, etc. It's not about conforming to particular religious rules. Notwithstanding, the above statements of Christ clearly indicate that a person cannot continue to hang on to the self-life and still be a disciple. It is submission to Christ that unites us as disciples, not views in common concerning philosophy or theology.

The rich young man wished to know what he had to do to inherit lasting life. He had kept the commandments from his youth on. Jesus looked at him and loved him. But Jesus indicated that he lacked just one thing. He had to sell all that he had, give the proceeds to the poor, and follow Jesus. The young man was unwilling to do that, for he had great riches of which he wouldn't let go. His desire to continue in his luxurious life style precluded the possibility of his becoming a disciple — so he went away sorrowfully.

Nevertheless, Jesus said, "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

[benstenson]

I've really enjoyed this thread.

[steve7150]

What does being "born again" mean other then believing Jesus is Lord. Prior to the resurrection no one really knew Jesus would be resurrected so Nicodemus believed as much as he may have been capable of at that time.
So there were people who believed Jesus was Lord before Pentacost like Peter who said "who else has the words of eternal life", therefore i think he must have been born again to understand this.

[RICHinCHRIST]

What does being "born again" mean other then believing Jesus is Lord. Prior to the resurrection no one really knew Jesus would be resurrected so Nicodemus believed as much as he may have been capable of at that time.
So there were people who believed Jesus was Lord before Pentacost like Peter who said "who else has the words of eternal life", therefore i think he must have been born again to understand this.

I've always understood being "born again" as receiving new spiritual life from God. When one is regenerated, they receive a new spirit that now seeks for God, and they receive the Holy Spirit as well. Perhaps you're right and Peter received a new spirit from God when he surrendered to Christ's lordship but hadn't "received" the Holy Spirit until Jesus breathed on the apostles in John 20.

My terminology was a bit off in my initial posts. Discipleship is an all-or-nothing commitment as Paidion mentioned in the verses he quoted. This, therefore, would mean that no one can be a true disciple until they forsake their selfish tendencies and submit to Christ's Lordship. I was considering how much a seeker can learn 'about' and 'from' Jesus before coming to that full surrender. I suppose its possible for one to learn very much intellectually without coming to a sincere full repentance and subsequent regeneration. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there are many people in institutional churches who know very much about Jesus intellectually but haven't truly been regenerated or decided to become a true disciple yet.

[steve7150]

I've always understood being "born again" as receiving new spiritual life from God. When one is regenerated, they receive a new spirit that now seeks for God, and they receive the Holy Spirit as well. Perhaps you're right and Peter received a new spirit from God when he surrendered to Christ's lordship but hadn't "received" the Holy Spirit until Jesus breathed on the apostles in John 20.

My terminology was a bit off in my initial posts. Discipleship is an all-or-nothing commitment as Paidion mentioned in the verses he quoted





Could'nt it be possible that Peter received a new Spirit earlier like when he answered Jesus question "who do you say i am?" John did say many things were not recorded in scripture and Jesus disciples usually acted as if they were "born again."
My understanding of "disciple" is a word like "pupil" or "follower" although i know Jesus made harsher sounding definitions to his early followers yet in Acts we don't really see the same type of demand made to new believers. Perhaps the first followers had a somewhat different calling although i'm not advocating a less dedicated approach.

[Roberto]

How many people here believe that they have "forsaken everything"? I mean everything, total perfection.
Is to "believe" to become perfectly submitted to God? I'm serious, no stones unturned.

[Homer]

My understanding of "disciple" is a word like "pupil" or "follower" although i know Jesus made harsher sounding definitions to his early followers yet in Acts we don't really see the same type of demand made to new believers. Perhaps the first followers had a somewhat different calling although i'm not advocating a less dedicated approach.

There is a difference after the resurrection and ascension. Jesus was not there, traveling from place to place. Following Him had a physical aspect; you could not "come follow me" without leaving your stuff behind. In Acts 10:29 Peter said to Jesus "We have left everything to follow you", and in v. 29 Jesus acknowledged Peter had left his home behind. But after the resurrection we find Peter headed back to his fishing boat. And it is known that Peter later had, for his time, a very large home.

[Roberto]

My understanding of "disciple" is a word like "pupil" or "follower" although i know Jesus made harsher sounding definitions to his early followers yet in Acts we don't really see the same type of demand made to new believers. Perhaps the first followers had a somewhat different calling although i'm not advocating a less dedicated approach.

There is a difference after the resurrection and ascension. Jesus was not there, traveling from place to place. Following Him had a physical aspect; you could not "come follow me" without leaving your stuff behind. In Acts 10:29 Peter said to Jesus "We have left everything to follow you", and in v. 29 Jesus acknowledged Peter had left his home behind. But after the resurrection we find Peter headed back to his fishing boat. And it is known that Peter later had, for his time, a very large home.

Certainly in Acts you don't find much explanation of "the cost of discipleship"- why is that?

[Roberto]

How can one become totally in submission unless they already have the Holy Spirit?

[Paidion]

How can one become totally in submission unless they already have the Holy Spirit?

Man was created with libertarian free will, and so he is capable of choosing good and rejecting evil, though with the spirit of God, he is more capable. Scripture records many who were righteous before the Holy spirit was given. Here are a few examples:

Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God. (Genesis 6:9)

There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil. Job 1:1

...and you have kept your promise, for you are righteous. (Nehemiah 9:8)

... for the LORD knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish. (Psalms 1:6)

But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day. (Proverbs 4:18)

In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord. (Luke 1:5,6)

Now there was a man named Joseph, from the Jewish town of Arimathea. He was a member of the council, a good and righteous man, who had not consented to their decision and action; and he was looking for the kingdom of God. (Luke 23:50,51)