We are saved from WHAT?

[dseusy]

Jeremiah,

I appreciatIe the gentleness with which you communicate... I just re-read my post and realized it could be received in multiple ways. To communicate more clearly I should clarify what I was trying to say... because you are right, Jesus is a way shower and an enabler. However, even though He shows the way to life and enables us in this endeavor, He is has to be a Savior to offer us any real hope. God's law is a central theme of the Gospel, which leads us to Christ and peels back the crust over our eyes to allow us to see our depravity and severe need. If Jesus merely points the way to life and we see Him merely as one who enables us by lifting us up in our flesh to accomplish God's law, then righteousness remains our burden. This is the "Martha" mentality... "I must earn God's love, affection, and favor by being a good human". Whereas, I think Mary had what God truly desires. He desires mercy, not sacrifice. This transforms walking the narrow path from managing my sin to being alive to the righteousness God has gifted to me- His own righteousness.

1 John 3:3 "And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."

Hebrews 1:3b "He had by himself purged our sins"

Hebrews 2:3a "how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation"

Hebrews 2:10-11 "For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren"

Hebrews 7:19 "for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God."

Hebrews 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

I walk the narrow path every day because I walk by faith... I am on the narrow path because of what Jesus did for me on the cross- saving me from condemnation. The peace that comes from this is unwavering because it is rooted in Jesus and His work.

[jeremiah]

Good morning Dseusy,

In my last post I meant to be emphatic about how this is all reckoned after the inward man. You may equate the inward man with a soul or spirit, but I cannot. I think if especially Paul's writings are read through as many times as possible in one sitting then it would be more clear what he means by "according to the flesh" I believe Paul is using multiple metaphors and similes for one and the same reality when he speaks of:

in Adam and in Christ,
the old man and the new man,
the outward man and the inward man,
the natural (lit. soulish) man and the spiritual man,
walking in the flesh and walking in the spirit,
and also but more vaguely according to the flesh and according to the spirit,
and that which is earthly and that which is heavenly (in us).

That reality I think is best summed up by the words of our saviour: Behold, I make all things new!

I think Paul has this new creation in mind when speaking of what I listed above, but as he says in 2 cor 4, we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us. The reality that is in us now after the inward man has not yet been revealed, but when Christ appears, we shall appear with him. Further, in anticipation of his final new creation of all things, this new creation that God is doing in us through Christ Jesus is not static, it is dynamic. Neither are our minds, wills, and actions entirely passive, but we are told to actively engage these as God works in us. Do I think this active engagement has it's cause in me? Not at all, I think (and I'm almost certain Paidion does as well) the activity of my mind, will, and actions are the response to God's training and discipline. **edit

If Jesus merely points the way to life and we see Him merely as one who enables us by lifting us up in our flesh to accomplish God's law, then righteousness remains our burden.

I agree. I've offered nothing about lifting us up "in our flesh," as "flesh" is typically understood today. Basically, I think you are misapplying Paul and Jesus' use of "the flesh" This idea is common and even considered normal today, but I believe nonetheless mistaken, being a vestige of pagan ideas of what a body, a soul, or spirit is. Just as people (not accusing you) often mistake Paul to consider God's law as trash, so too people imagine he saw the flesh as not only trash but evil trash. **edit

...I must earn God's love, affection, and favor by being a good human...

I could never suggest such a thing, nor would Paidion, like you I think this an absurd deception.

I walk the narrow path every day because I walk by faith... I am on the narrow path because of what Jesus did for me on the cross- saving me from condemnation. The peace that comes from this is unwavering because it is rooted in Jesus and His work.

I resonate with this as well. What we're saying is there is more to this life than only being saved from our condemnation.

Grace and peace to you man,...

[dseusy]

Jeremiah,

The original languages seem to communicate, plainly, the flesh is the natural body. It was made from dirt and will die. If it is new, why does it lust against the Spirit? If it is new, why does it still accomplish evil... even against my own will? I'm not sure Jesus making all things new applies to the things of this world, except that he bears fruit through it- so newness is manifested. My fence just blew over in the wind- He didn't make it new. My face recently added some new wrinkles... it isn't new either. The things of this world waste away and the flesh profits nothing. However, we have a new and living hope in Christ, so He has made me new.

We both agree that the law is good. I wouldn't know what is good if it wasn't for the law... additionally, the law brings us to Christ- so there is great value in it. The law shines light on the flesh. It reveals its true nature. Paul said, "with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." Why would Paul say his flesh (which, again, the original languages make clear this is the body) serves the law of sin if it was new? "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells" Romans 7:18a

Paul's words are not a metaphor or a simile. He is not comparing the flesh to an otherwise unrelated object, nor does he state "like" or "as". This is a letter where he presents a clear explanation of the Gospel from start to finish. Romans 7:22 demonstrates his respect for the law and that his members (limbs/body) is wretched.

This is congruent with my experience. I try not to sin but I sin. I know it because the applied law reveals it. If it wasn't for the mirror which James discusses (James 1) I would probably think differently.

Here are more flesh verses to reveal its nature:

"There is no soundness in my flesh Because of Your anger, Nor any health in my bones Because of my sin. For my iniquities have gone over my head; Like a heavy burden they are too heavy for me."
Psalm 38:3-4

"For He remembered that they were but flesh, A breath that passes away and does not come again."
Psalm 78:39

"All flesh is grass, And all its loveliness is like the flower of the field. The grass withers, the flower fades, Because the breath of the Lord blows upon it; Surely the people are grass. The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever."
Isaiah 40:6b-8

"Thus says the Lord: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the Lord."
Jeremiah 17:5

"So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:8

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."
Romans 8:9

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption." 1 Corinthians 15:50

"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?"
Galatians 3:3

"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."
Galatians 5:17

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
Ephesians 6:12

"For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" Philippians 3:3

"There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
1 Peter 3:21

[dwilkins]

The following are three very important essays describing my point better than I have. I encourage you all to read them.

http://www.postost.net/2013/04/wright-w ... thians-521

http://www.postost.net/2013/04/more-rig ... -believers

http://www.postost.net/2013/04/no-imput ... ere-either

Doug

[jriccitelli]

What we're saying is there is more to this life than only being saved from our condemnation’ (Jeremiah)

Yes we agree, but Paidion started with and continues to put being saved from ‘sin sickness’ (or other) rather than acknowledging we are saved primarily from death. That Jesus died for our sins, in our place, the death that was due us.

‘But where do you find that Christ suffered and died in our place so that we wouldn't have to suffer, but could get off scott free?’ (Paidion) And where do you find that Christ suffered and died in order to appease the wrath of an angry God?
So Jesus gave His life—spent His life to deliver people from their misery—to ransom them from the things which trouble them’ (Paidion)

We no longer live in the flesh but by the Spirit (Gods Holy Spirit), the flesh profiteth nothing.. the work of the Spirit is evident; love, joy, peace, forgiveness, bearing good fruit unto God, none of our works profit or save us – they are only signs of a healthy plant (or a saved in Christ plant) – the plant will die but our spirit goes on to be with God.

What we have been saying is; the first plant 'must die' in order to grow the new plant.
If it was not for His Spirit raising up the new plant it would 'remain dead'.
So death is of first order to proceed, we were promised that sinners must die.
Unless the penalty is paid, you remain dead in your sins.
Thus Christ saved us from death.
If you do 'not' believe this, you die and you remain dead.
If you believe, you experience new life without having to die, you only need now to daily cut off the dead flesh, focus on His Spirit, and live in His body.

None of this happens unless we believe and accept the penalty for sin – death.
Either we pay the penalty, or believe Jesus Christ paid the penalty in our place.

[dwilkins]

"Yes we agree, but Paidion started with and continues to put being saved from ‘sin sickness’ (or other) rather than acknowledging we are saved primarily from death."

Are we? How many believers have died physically since the cross? If Jesus died so that we wouldn't have to die then I don't think it worked out too well. Likewise, penal substitutionary atonement requires (at least in the strictest definition that Chafer and Theime use) that by the time Jesus said "It is finished!", it was finished. That requires that if he'd been pulled down off of the cross, given some skin grafts, antibiotics, and an IV, that it would have remained finished. That doesn't pass the smell test. In addition, Jesus supposedly paid for all of the sins of humanity in all of history while still hanging on the cross (presumably during the three hours of darkness). But, physically, his crucifixion wasn't anymore painful than thousands have been beforehand or since. Therefore, whatever death represents our substitution could not have been his physical death (according to their thought), and it is unlikely that his torture was adequate to match the suffering of billions of sins committed by billions of people throughout history (sins so bad that they would require an infinity of punishment in the afterlife).

It seems to me that penal substitutionary atonement has a lot of logical and scriptural holes in it. For anyone wanting to read are the evolution of atonement theory I highly recommend "Fortress Introduction to Salvation and the Cross" and "Redeeming the Gospel" by David Brondos.

[jriccitelli]

I have said repeatedly that we were saved from spiritual death.
Everyone dies, that’s obvious, what we are saved from is death – the second death.
The penalty is both – first the flesh – then the spiritual.
We are commanded to die to the flesh so that we will not experience the second death.

It was not the amount of pain (as I have heard some say, like Hanegraaff) jesus suffered (that makes no sense). It was Who He Was that makes the huge difference.
God said it was the Passover, the penalty was death, God provided the Lamb, the Lamb died in our place.
If that is what God provided, then that covers it.

[jeremiah]

Dseusy,

My initial reaction to your last post was total bewilderment. I didn't understand how you got my meaning so turned around, but then I re-read my post, and I think I saw why. I edited it once more hoping to make more clear the break in my thought instead of the jumble it probably appeared to be. It still may not change your disagreement with me, but may clarify some stuff.

I would like to ask both you and JR to substantiate your use of,"the flesh profits nothing." I challenge both of you to go back to John 6 and consider whether you've quote mined that one, and stripped it of Jesus' meaning. And would you guys please explain why you think your being true to his meaning of: ...It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing. The words I speak to you are spirit and they are life.

Grace and peace to y'all...

[jriccitelli]

(I am on lunch, and have a lot of work this week, but I’m going to try and keep up here)
I’m going to keep in mind that you both may have a different (or no dichotomy) of the human and of God. But I will answer as one who believes ‘the body is only ashes and atoms’ and that the person (me) is actually a spirit (a created human spirit), and that Jesus indwelt a ‘created’ human body.

“… It is the Spirit who gives life”; The Spirit and the Word are One, they both come down from above and are of God. If you don’t ‘believe’ you have neither the Spirit, the Word, nor Life, or Jesus, or God, but only death.
“… the flesh profits nothing”; If it is none of the 'above' it is not from God, the works of the flesh are evident (corruption...). The things of this world profit nothing; the works that we do, our own effort, circumcision, ritual, eating food, and working for food. Everything done under the sun does nothing to make us Holy, right with God, or saved from death – like the manna – we to will perish unless we believe his Words. This doesn’t mean we cannot learn to control the flesh, nor does it mean that flesh is evil or bad. It just means we cannot ‘serve’ our body, or live for, or gratify the flesh, unless we ‘serve’ in a way that honors God, and is ‘controlled’ by His Spirit and His Word. The flesh now is obedient to God, and to our reborn spirit (all the while - our body is passing away).
“… the words that I have spoken to you are spirit”; His Words are Gods Words, and the Spirit gives life, and only believing results in profit and obedience. In other words; ‘only in doing the will’ of The Father who sent Jesus - do we profit.
“… and are life”; His Word is life, yet only if we believe His Words. Only His Word brings profit, and results. And this is the work of God – to believe His Words (Remember that Jesus referred to Torah and ‘everything’ the Prophets and Moses have said, the word they heard and learned from was their scriptures, the OT. That is why they died, and were judged, because they did not ‘believe’)

From John 6:26-64 Jesus says the same thing in a number of different ways;
First of all it is revealed Jesus is synonymous with the manna from heaven but the manna was not the eternal bread, like the flesh it does not last.
Like our body, It was given by God, but it is only temporary, and could not be kept.
Now it is made known that 'His body' is the true bread, the true water, the true drink and the blood, the true Lamb, the true sacrifice, the true life, the true Word, the true God. All these things are One with Jesus, and all these things are synonymous with one another.
One thing that is not synonymous with God - is us, especially our flesh.
Circumcision and baptism are signs that the flesh had to be cut off and buried.
Unless we are in his body, we will perish. This is not by effort - but by believing - by His Spirit, with our spirit.

So again, death proceeds our new life. without death we are still in our sins.

[Paidion]

I have said repeatedly that we were saved from spiritual death.

So you have. It might also be instructive to read what Paul considered us to be saved from (through the sacrifice of Christ):

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Galatians 1:3-5)