The Role of Hell in the Gospel Message?

[steve]

Homer wrote:

But how can we believe judgement was preached without mentioning consequences?

I don't see why there would need to be elaboration on the consequences of the judgment. Though they could be mentioned, there is no necessity that they must be. When you tell a person that he or she will be judged by their Creator for everything they have done, I do not see how that would not be unnerving, or even terrifying.

Jesus said that we must give account at the judgment for every idle word we speak. He did not say what the consequences would be, if that were to go badly for us. Yet I, as one who hasn't the slightest fear that I will end up in hell, find the statement disconcerting.

On the Day of Pentecost, when Peter had made no allusion to a final, or post-mortem, judgment (he only said that all Christ's enemies would be made His footstool—that is, would be brought into subjection to Him), the people were pricked to the heart. They seemed frightened when they came and asked, "What must we do?" This would seem to be a reasonable response to that information.

[Paidion]

On the Day of Pentecost, when Peter had made no allusion to a final, or post-mortem, judgment (he only said that all Christ's enemies would be made His footstool—that is, would be brought into subjection to Him), the people were pricked to the heart. They seemed frightened when they came and asked, "What must we do?" This would seem to be a reasonable response to that information.

It seems you are alluding to the following verse:

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Hmmmm... I always thought the previous verse explained why they were cut to the heart. The verse above says, "when they heard this they were cut to the heart." What is this "this" which they heard? Had they not just heard Peter say that they had put to death the one whom God had made Lord and Messiah? For the immediately preceding verse reads as follows:

36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

... and this is immediately followed by, "Now when they heard this..." So I have always assumed that they were cut to the heart out of deep conviction that they had put to death God's Messiah whom He had sent to be their lord.

[steve7150]

Surely 'Judgment' and 'Judgment Day' is part of the preaching message. I don't remember if anyone is this thread denied this. But I would assume that most everyone who makes the point that 'hell' isn't found in Acts has no problem with mention of judgment.







I recently attended a wedding and words like "destiny", "fate" , "meant to be" and "the universe" were all used to describe the fact that the wedding couple were fated to meet each other and marry.
I was thinking about who would be the "first cause" of destiny,fate & meant to be and realized that "God" was not mentioned although "the Universe" was mentioned.
So i clearly knew why God was omitted and i think it is because everyone on some level knows we are accountable to God for judgment and people fear this so they suppress thinking about God.

[steve]

Paidion,

Yes, you have made my point.

[Homer]

Steve,

You wrote:

On the Day of Pentecost, when Peter had made no allusion to a final, or post-mortem, judgment (he only said that all Christ's enemies would be made His footstool—that is, would be brought into subjection to Him), the people were pricked to the heart. They seemed frightened when they came and asked, "What must we do?" This would seem to be a reasonable response to that information.

If it is as you appear to say, that the fright was due to their being convinced that Jesus was now their Lord, I do not see what is so terrifying about that, absent any knowledge of consequences of failure to yield to His lordship. After all, probably most all of them recognized the Lordship of Yahweh; all that was needed would be to recognize Yahweh's delegation of authority to Jesus, just as we do. But I am unsure of what you mean by subjugation, which strongly implies forceful conversion. Come to think of it, that sounds like the universalist's picture of hell.

But I think the footstool allusion is much more than being put under someone's authority or subjugation. There is very good evidence that it is a reference to being destroyed, as in executed. Perhaps you have seen pictures of ancient art depicting a conquering ruler with his foot on the neck of his prostrate opponent just before plunging the spear into his victim. The "being made a footstool" references in the NT obviously come from Psalm 110, concerning which numerous commentators refer to Joshua 10:22-26:

Joshua 10:22-26
New King James Version (NKJV)

22. Then Joshua said, “Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings to me from the cave.” 23. And they did so, and brought out those five kings to him from the cave: the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.

24. So it was, when they brought out those kings to Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said to the captains of the men of war who went with him, “Come near, put your feet on the necks of these kings.” And they drew near and put their feet on their necks. 25. Then Joshua said to them, “Do not be afraid, nor be dismayed; be strong and of good courage, for thus the Lord will do to all your enemies against whom you fight.” 26. And afterward Joshua struck them and killed them, and hanged them on five trees; and they were hanging on the trees until evening.

Psalm 110 seems to speak of much the same fate for God's enemies. Viewed in this light, the symbolism of the foot on the neck, Peter's "footstool" reference would be a terrifying thing indeed.

I must add that I agree it makes no sense to preach hell, or the judgement and its consequences, to an atheist. That would only provoke derision. However, many people we would classify as unbelievers do think that there is life after death an an accounting of some sort to be made. They mostly just think if their good outweighs their bad they have a ticket to heaven. Thus warnings about judgement and its consequences have a place in evangelism, used with good judgement, of course.

[Singalphile]

So how exactly could hell be incorporated into the gospel message?

If pressed about it, what would the different approaches be?

First, I think all (except Calvinists, I guess) would say that every person "of age" has the chance in this life to seek and find God, that everyone will die (at least physically) and then in the end God will raise or bring everyone to be judged before Him. Those who have put their faith in Christ as Lord have God's gift of salvation from sin and death.

Those who are not in Christ will find themselves in hell and there...

1 Eternal Conscious Separation from God
... they will live for all eternity with nothing but sorrow and regret without any good thing or emotion because they will be completely separated from God who is the source of all goodness. Having rejected God and His gift of eternal life through faith in Christ, they will remain or be kept alive (i.e., conscious) and eternally unable or unwilling to repent and change their circumstance. They will be completely miserable forever.

2 Eternal Destruction/Extinction
... they will ultimately be destroyed by God's presence and glory. It will be the second and final death. It will be different from the first death in that each person will presumably have been made aware of the truth of God and the Lordship of Jesus. It will likely be an occasion of regret and sorrow. Having rejected God and His gift of eternal life through faith in Christ, they will return to death. They will be no more.

3 Punished until Repentance/Reconciliation
... there will be some kind of corrective punishment. They will regret that they failed to serve God while alive on earth and eventually all will repent, accept Jesus as their master, and bow to Him. God will mercifully forgive them and grant them also the gift of eternal life. They will then be taken out of hell and will be reconciled to God and all others in Christ. In popular parlance, they will ultimately all "go to heaven".

4 The Bible is not Clear and God Only Knows
... we don't know what will happen. The view that is most well known is one of several views held by smart and sincere Christians scholars, but the Bible actually says much less about it than most people think. In any case, God seems to want people who willingly choose Him with faith and humility out of a desire to honor Him and accept His authority. Anyone who is just weighing his options probably doesn't yet fit into that category.

So maybe something like that.

And I know that the views can be combined (though such combinations don't make a lot of sense to me).

[steve7150]

. But I am unsure of what you mean by subjugation, which strongly implies forceful conversion. Come to think of it, that sounds like the universalist's picture of hell.











Homer you have been involved in very long threads on CU several times and i never recall Paidion or anyone claiming God coerces or forcefully converts anyone to Christ. In fact a forced conversion is actually a contradiction and since you made this claim, i wonder if you could document this representation to be the CU view?

[steve7150]

22. Then Joshua said, “Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings to me from the cave.” 23. And they did so, and brought out those five kings to him from the cave: the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.

24. So it was, when they brought out those kings to Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said to the captains of the men of war who went with him, “Come near, put your feet on the necks of these kings.” And they drew near and put their feet on their necks. 25. Then Joshua said to them, “Do not be afraid, nor be dismayed; be strong and of good courage, for thus the Lord will do to all your enemies against whom you fight.” 26. And afterward Joshua struck them and killed them, and hanged them on five trees; and they were hanging on the trees until evening.

Psalm 110 seems to speak of much the same fate for God's enemies. Viewed in this light, the symbolism of the foot on the neck, Peter's "footstool" reference would be a terrifying thing indeed.








As you know Homer before Christ there was no Holy Spirit to come into someone's heart and change them so enemies were usually just destroyed, so the question is with the death of Jesus and the coming of the Holy Spirit are there other alternatives to killing? Joshua killed his enemies, what did Jesus do?

[Homer]

Homer you have been involved in very long threads on CU several times and i never recall Paidion or anyone claiming God coerces or forcefully converts anyone to Christ. In fact a forced conversion is actually a contradiction and since you made this claim, i wonder if you could document this representation to be the CU view?steve7150

From the scenario presented at this forum by the universalists and quasi-universalists I do not see how you can conclude otherwise.

Consider:

1. At the judgement all persons will have apodictic knowledge of who Christ is.

2. Nevertheless, it is imagined that many will still refuse to bow the knee and confess Him as Lord.

3. They are cast into a literal torment of fire until they repent and go to heaven. All purely voluntary on their part, of course. Escaping the torment has nothing to do with it.

That pretty much summarizes it. The no-hell view was once a popular idea among universalists but they have seen the utility of the fires of hell. "Outer darkness" doesn't seem to be very popular among them, at least not here.

[steve7150]

Consider:

1. At the judgement all persons will have apodictic knowledge of who Christ is.

2. Nevertheless, it is imagined that many will still refuse to bow the knee and confess Him as Lord.

3. They are cast into a literal torment of fire until they repent and go to heaven. All purely voluntary on their part, of course. Escaping the torment has nothing to do with it.






I wish i knew where you get your info from. As you know it says that those not named in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire therefore at the moment of judgment at the resurrection, nothing is said about an opportunity to repent at that moment.
Then you claim that the CU belief is that unbelievers enter a literal torment of fire. Maybe you know more then me but i understand the lake of fire to be spiritual and for purifying as the greek word for fire "pur" would suggest. I hardly think a literal fire would purify anyone.
Got any quotes from CUs who support your description?