Abrahamic Salvation?

Man, Sin, & Salvation
dwight92070
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:49 am

commonsense wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:13 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:04 am
Dwight - I have given you specific teachings of Jesus. Now you give me SPECIFIC scriptures in the Old Testament where you will find these teachings. If you just say, "The prophets and the Psalms cover all of that." , you would be wrong. Give me the exact verses that teach the same thing, since you made that claim.
Dwight, The stories and parables that Jesus told were to reveal truths that can be found in the Old Testament.

Dwight - Again, you can't give specific answers, so you just evade the question with a general "These truths are in the Old Testament". Wrong. Where is the truth of the angels taking out the unrighteous from among the righteous at the end of the age, found in the Old Testament? Where is the truth that the Messiah would FULFILL the law, not abolish it, found in the Old Testament? Where is the truth that faith in the Messiah would bring us righteousness, NOT the keeping of the law, found in the Old Testament? Where is the truth of the four kinds of hearts that Jesus spoke of in the parable of the sower, found in the Old Testament? Where is the truth that the promises given to Abraham and to his SEED, is actually a reference to CHRIST, not Abraham's physical descendants, found in the Old Testament? Galatians 3:16 Where is the truth of the rapture of the church found in the Old Testament? Where is the truth that God and the Messiah are One found in the Old Testament? Where is the truth that if you've seen the Messiah, you've seen God, found in the Old Testament? John 14:9

Dwight - Even if you might find SOME of that information in the Old Testament, it is pretty much "hidden" from our understanding, until Jesus arrives on the scene and His apostles, to whom He gave understanding of the Old Testament. Luke 24:44-45 Prior to Jesus "opening the minds" of His apostles to understand the Old Testament, NO ONE FULLY UNDERSTOOD THE OLD TESTAMENT.

dwight92070 wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:04 am
Dwight - Do you command the wind and the sea to be calm, as Jesus did? Do you walk on water, as Jesus did? Do you raise the dead, as Jesus did? Do you forgive the sins of men, actually blot them out, as Jesus did? Will you die for the sins of all mankind, as Jesus did?
NO, we are to obey His commands to us, not do everything that He did, because we can't.
You said that no man can obey all of God's commands, yet you say that we are to obey His commands.????

Dwight - Anyone who is well-versed in the New Testament would know what I meant. All of us sin at one time or another, even if we are a Christian. James said "We all stumble in many ways". So, no, no man can obey all of God's commands all of the time. Paul said that the "scripture has shut up everyone under sin". Galatians 3:22

Dwight - The only way any person could be saved by obeying God's commands, is if he kept ALL OF THEM ALL OF THE TIME. Paul put it like this: "For if a law had been given WHICH WAS ABLE to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law." Galatians 3:21 But the LAW IS NOT ABLE TO IMPART LIFE? Why? NOT because the law is faulty, but because WE ARE FAULTY, we cannot always keep it.

Dwight - But all of that is a short rabbit trail from the main issue. The point I tried to make is: God commanded obedience to His laws in the Old Testament, but he knew that they would still sin. SO HE INSTITUTED ANIMAL SACRIFICES as a FORESHADOWING OF THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE, HIS SON. The animal sacrifices did not take away sin, but they were considered a covering of sin, until the time when the Messiah came. "Behold, the lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world." (John the Baptist - John 1:29)

Dwight - But now, under the New Covenant, God is no longer demanding obedience to His Old Testament laws -rather He is demanding obedience to His Son, Jesus. We are under the law of Christ, as Paul said. And yes, we still sin, not because we want to, but because we are human. But God made provision for that too. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". "The blood of Jesus His Son, cleanses us from all sin." 1 John chapter 1.

"Forgive and you will be forgiven. If you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive you."

Jesus told Peter to get out of the boat and walk on water.
" Truly I tell you if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, "Be lifted up and thrown into the sea." it will happen. If you believe you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
dwight92070 wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:19 am
By the way, tell me who in the Old and New Testaments believed, as you do, that the Levitical law, as you call it, was from foreign gods.
Isaiah: "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I do NOT delight in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.When you come to appear before Me, WHO HAS REQUIRED THIS FROM YOUR HAND? Bring no more FUTILE sacrifices, incense is AN ABOMINATION to Me .........."

Dwight - All it takes is to simply look at the CONTEXT of Isaiah chapter one, to see that God is not condemning the very practice that He Himself instituted - i.e. animal sacrifices. RATHER He is condemning the giving of animal sacrifices, WHILE, AT THE SAME TIME, BEING "WEIGHED DOWN WITH INIQUITY" AND "REBELLION". Isaiah 1:4 and 5 Had they been repentant, there would have been NO PROBLEM WITH THE ANIMAL SACRIFICES.

dwight92070
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:40 am

To put it more simply: Today, we obey God by obeying Jesus. Remember the words of the Father when Jesus was on the mount of transfiguration - "This is My Beloved Son. LISTEN TO HIM."

Jesus said it another way: "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

commonsense
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:23 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:40 am
To put it more simply: Today, we obey God by obeying Jesus. Remember the words of the Father when Jesus was on the mount of transfiguration - "This is My Beloved Son. LISTEN TO HIM."

Jesus said it another way: "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Dwight, Yes, but Jesus wasn't the only prophet that God sent. He also sent Isaiah who says that animal sacrifices, burning of incense, etc.etc are useless and futile. And He explains the way of the one true God in chapter 58.

dwight92070
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:53 pm

You only listen to what you want to hear and then you ignore the rest.

commonsense
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:10 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:49 am
Dwight - All it takes is to simply look at the CONTEXT of Isaiah chapter one, to see that God is not condemning the very practice that He Himself instituted - i.e. animal sacrifices. RATHER He is condemning the giving of animal sacrifices, WHILE, AT THE SAME TIME, BEING "WEIGHED DOWN WITH INIQUITY" AND "REBELLION". Isaiah 1:4 and 5 Had they been repentant, there would have been NO PROBLEM WITH THE ANIMAL SACRIFICES.
Dwight, Isaiah is very straight forward about the matter. He means what he says: God did NOT institute animal sacrifices etc. "Who has required this from your hand?" Apparently it wasn't God. Yes, they were weighed down with iniquity and rebellion. Had they " ceased to do evil and learned to do good" their sins would have been as white as snow- wiped away. And if you're doing evil, sacrificing an animal isn't going to do anything for you. So it's basically useless either way. But that's not what they thought because they believed in the Levitical law which says that their evil doings were forgiven by sacrificing animals.

As Isaiah says: " He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog's neck; he who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine's blood; he who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol. Just as they have chosen THEIR OWN WAYS, and their soul delights in their abominations, so will I choose their delusions, and bring their fears upon them, because when I spoke they did not hear; but did evil before My eyes, and chose that in which I do not delight.

Isaiah makes it pretty plain and clear to them that their ways were fruitless and futile and he gives them the word of the Spirit which does produce fruit(chapter 58:6-11)
And so as Paul says in Romans: Although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish minds were darkened."

dwight92070
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:49 am

Apparently you forgot that Abel offered God an animal sacrifice. Cain did not. God received Abel's animal sacrifice but rejected Cain's sacrifice, which was the "fruit of the ground". Genesis 4:3 It appears that somehow Abel knew that his sacrifice "OF THE FIRSTLINGS FROM HIS FLOCK AND OF THEIR FAT PORTIONS" would be pleasing to the Lord. So "By faith (Hebrews 11:4), Abel offered to God A BETTER SACRIFICE than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, GOD TESTIFYING ABOUT HIS GIFTS ..."

It's very likely that Abel and Cain both knew that GOD HIMSELF KILLED AN ANIMAL to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness. "The Lord God made GARMENTS OF SKIN FOR ADAM AND HIS WIFE, AND CLOTHED THEM." Genesis 3:21

We see from this story that animal sacrifices were God's idea, not to take away sin, but to cover it, until Jesus came TO TAKE AWAY OUR SINS. God covered their nakedness, which was a sin, AFTER THE FALL. Even today, public nudity is a sin, although Hollywood, Playboy, and this sinful society don't think so.

The writer of Hebrews obviously SAW THE POSITIVE VALUE OF ANIMAL SACRIFICE.
Listen to what he says in Hebrews 9:13-14: "For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled SANCTIFY FOR THE CLEANSING (literally "PURITY") OF THE FLESH, how much more will THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, Who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So you see, Commonsense, you do NOT have the scripture on your side. Again, you are MISINTERPRETING Isaiah's condemnation of animal sacrifices, WHILE THE OFFERER'S HEARTS WERE NOT IN THE RIGHT PLACE, AS WELL AS BEING DISOBEDIENT TO GOD'S OTHER COMMANDS.

Hebrews tells us that the blood of animals sanctified the one who sinned for the cleansing of their flesh. Kind David said in Psalm 32:1 - "How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, WHOSE SIN IS COVERED." David himself "sacrificed an ox and a fatling" (2 Samuel 6:13), when they brought the Ark of the Covenant into Jerusalem. He again offered oxen for burnt offerings in 2 Samuel 24:22-25.

When the temple was finished, King Solomon offered what was, most likely, the largest animal sacrifice ever: 22,000 oxen and 120,000 sheep! (1 Kings 8:63) AND THE LORD WAS PLEASED WITH HIS PRAYER AND HIS OFFERING!! (1 Kings 9:3-5)

If animal sacrifices were an abomination to God, do you think he would have accepted Solomon's offering? OBVIOUSLY NOT!

So BOTH THE OLD AND THE NEW TESTAMENT TESTIFY TO THE FACT THAT ANIMAL SACRIFICES WERE GOD'S IDEA - HE EVEN COMMANDED THEM TO BE GIVEN. ALL THE GODLY MEN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT SACRIFICED ANIMALS TO GOD. Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon and the list goes on.

You do not have a scriptural leg to stand on. Your teaching is not Biblical, not factual, false, and you are attempting to mislead and deceive true Christians.

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Paidion
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by Paidion » Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:47 pm

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Paidion

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commonsense
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Re: Abrahamic Salvation?

Post by commonsense » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:03 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:47 pm
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
This is true.
dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:49 am
Hebrews tells us that the blood of animals sanctified the one who sinned for the cleansing of their flesh. Kind David said in Psalm 32:1 - "How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, WHOSE SIN IS COVERED."
Actually, Hebrews is telling you that animal sacrifices etc. were "fleshly" ( man-made) ordinances devised by man to purify themselves of sin. And by THEIR law, they had no sin. They were clean and sanctified by their ritual cleansing practices. But, "those who say they have no sin, deceive themselves." GOD"S law is fulfilled by loving others as yourself."
dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:49 am
Kind David said in Psalm 32:1 - "How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, WHOSE SIN IS COVERED."
David was anointed by God because of his heart. As Samuel says, God looks at the inward, not at the outward appearance. David himself said, " animal sacrifices,you did not require."

This is the problem in the Old Testament, as Galatians states, there were TWO covenants, one of the flesh and one of the Spirit. The one of the flesh represents Hagar, a foreign woman of Egypt.
The physical sons of Abraham were claiming that the Levitical law came from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But, as the New Testament writers say, Abraham was NOT the father of their faith. He wasn't the father of many "seeds"( faiths). He was the father of one "seed", one faith in one word.

If you notice, the story of Adam and Eve is an illustration of the story of Israel. God instructed them in the way of life. "All ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink. for they drank of the Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ." But, some decided to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ( go their own way). Jesus uses the same words to describe the priests of the Levitical law- a brood of vipers-serpents, a tree that bears no fruit.

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