Soteriology

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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Paidion
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Re: Soteriology

Post by Paidion » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:14 pm

Homer, perhaps the following passage is relevant to understanding Paul's position:

He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. (Romans 4:25, 5:1,2 NAS95)

The word δικαιωσις (dikaiōsis), translated as "justification" by the NAS95 in the above passage is derived from δικαιοω (dikaioō) which means "to make righteous." And δικαιοω is derived from "δικαιος" (dikaios) which means "righteous." I suggest that the above passage should have been translated:

He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our [need for] righteousifying. Therefore, having been made righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

We must trust God to provide enabling grace (Titus 2) which we appropriate by faith, to eschew evil and live righteously:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

However, someone might say to me, "Why don't you look back 3 verses from your quote! It says that Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness!" Does it really? The Greek preposition is the word "εις." The preposition does NOT mean "as"; it means "into." In Greek, for it to be counted to him into righteousness means that righteousness is the goal or result of Abraham's faith. Likewise with us. We appropriate God's enabling grace by faith, and this results in a life-long period of eschewing wrongdoing and working righteousness.

By the way, that Greek word δικαιωσις (that occurs in Romans 4:25 above) is found in only one other verse in the entire New Testament. That verse is Romans 5:18

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in righteousifying of life.

Again, "righteousifying" is my translation of the word. It makes sense to me that Jesus' righteous act of dying for us, made available to us that free gift of God's enabling grace, and this results in the "righteousifying" or "sanctifying" of life. But what in the world would be the meaning of the free gift resulting in the "justification of life" as virtually all translations have it?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Soteriology

Post by Homer » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:06 am

Hi Paidion,

I have no quibble with your last post, in fact I agree with it. But I do disagree that you have defined the extent of the benefits of Christ's atonement. I believe Jesus' death and resurrection had far greater effect, namely He suffered and died for the sins of all who ever lived. The scriptures are replete with figures of speech and a prominent one in relation to the atonement is the metonym. The scriptures plainly inform us that Jesus bore or sin on the cross. How does one literally bear the sin of another? But it is easy to see how one might take on the penalty (think debt) of another.

The scriptures are simply overwhelming in this regard:

Isaiah 53 v 6: We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Peter 2 v 24: He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

Isaiah 53 v 12: Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.

Hebrews 9 v 28: So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1 John 2 v 2: He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4 v 10: This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Isaiah 53 v 5: But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Hebrews 2 v 9: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Ephesians 1 v 7: In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace.

Romans 5 v 6- 11: (6) You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. (7) Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. (8) But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Since we have been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! (10) For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! (11) Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Ephesians 5 v 2: And live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us and gave himself for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.


I am still hoping to hear how you might rebut, from scripture, that Jesus died for those who lived and died prior to His coming.

Have a wonderful Easter!

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Paidion
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Re: Soteriology

Post by Paidion » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:32 pm

Hi Homer, you wrote:I believe Jesus' death and resurrection had far greater effect, namely He suffered and died for the sins of all who ever lived.
If so, how does that benefit the more than 90% of all people who are not Christians?
But it is easy to see how one might take on the penalty (think debt) of another.
Hmmm... "penalty" and "debt" do not seem to be synonyms.

Let's look at "penalty." Does God exact a penalty for sin? Why so? Do penalties of any kind benefit anyone?
Some parents require their children to "pay" a penalty for their misbehavior. "I told you you were not to go out with friends after 10 P.M. But you did so. So I will have to punish you. You will not be allowed go out with friends at all for a week." Penalties do not necessarily change behaviour. The punished person is just more careful the next time so that he won't be caught. The concept is that the offender must "pay" for his offence by receiving a penalty, whether he changes his behavior or not. Maybe this is what you mean by "debt"—the idea that the offender must "pay" by being punished.

One the other hand, loving parents do not think of having their children receive penalties to balance out their wrongdoing. They want their children to change their behavior and they attempt to do this out of loving correction or discipline (teaching or training). There is a great difference between "discipline" and "punishment."

God wants to discipline or correct His children—not punish them. That's why, as expressed in Titus 2, through the sacrifice of Christ, God's grace appeared:
"training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works."

Do you believe that God is obligated to PUNISH all sin, and in order to "satisfy" His need to do so, His beloved Son died in our place, and this fully satisfied Him? Would a human father who believed in punishing or penalizing his misbehaving son for wrongdoing be SATISFIED if his good son (always well-behaved) took that punishment instead?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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In2joy
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Re: Soteriology

Post by In2joy » Fri May 22, 2020 6:10 pm

Paidion wrote:
Hi Homer, you wrote:I believe Jesus' death and resurrection had far greater effect, namely He suffered and died for the sins of all who ever lived.
If so, how does that benefit the more than 90% of all people who are not Christians?
But it is easy to see how one might take on the penalty (think debt) of another.
Hmmm... "penalty" and "debt" do not seem to be synonyms.

Let's look at "penalty." Does God exact a penalty for sin? Why so? Do penalties of any kind benefit anyone?
Some parents require their children to "pay" a penalty for their misbehavior. "I told you you were not to go out with friends after 10 P.M. But you did so. So I will have to punish you. You will not be allowed go out with friends at all for a week." Penalties do not necessarily change behaviour. The punished person is just more careful the next time so that he won't be caught. The concept is that the offender must "pay" for his offence by receiving a penalty, whether he changes his behavior or not. Maybe this is what you mean by "debt"—the idea that the offender must "pay" by being punished.

One the other hand, loving parents do not think of having their children receive penalties to balance out their wrongdoing. They want their children to change their behavior and they attempt to do this out of loving correction or discipline (teaching or training). There is a great difference between "discipline" and "punishment."

God wants to discipline or correct His children—not punish them. That's why, as expressed in Titus 2, through the sacrifice of Christ, God's grace appeared:
"training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works."

Do you believe that God is obligated to PUNISH all sin, and in order to "satisfy" His need to do so, His beloved Son died in our place, and this fully satisfied Him? Would a human father who believed in punishing or penalizing his misbehaving son for wrongdoing be SATISFIED if his good son (always well-behaved) took that punishment instead?
Those who are not Christians are doomed and will not benefit from the work of salvation.


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Paidion
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Re: Soteriology

Post by Paidion » Mon May 25, 2020 8:26 pm

So those who die as non-Christians are DOOMED, you say. What do you make of Paul's words to Timothy:

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10 ESV)

Does the term "all people" exclude those who are "doomed"?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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In2joy
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Re: Soteriology

Post by In2joy » Tue May 26, 2020 11:35 pm

Paidion wrote:So those who die as non-Christians are DOOMED, you say. What do you make of Paul's words to Timothy:

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10 ESV)

Does the term "all people" exclude those who are "doomed"?
Paul does not teach universalism. It’s only when one takes scriptures out of context that they can make the Bible day anything.


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darinhouston
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Re: Soteriology

Post by darinhouston » Wed May 27, 2020 8:59 am

In2joy wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 11:35 pm
Paidion wrote:So those who die as non-Christians are DOOMED, you say. What do you make of Paul's words to Timothy:

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10 ESV)

Does the term "all people" exclude those who are "doomed"?
Paul does not teach universalism. It’s only when one takes scriptures out of context that they can make the Bible day anything.


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So, can you put that in context and explain what Paul means from your perspective? I'm not a universalist, but I have some affinity to their position.

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Re: Soteriology

Post by Seeker » Thu May 28, 2020 11:50 am

Paidion wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:32 pm
Hi Homer, you wrote:I believe Jesus' death and resurrection had far greater effect, namely He suffered and died for the sins of all who ever lived.
If so, how does that benefit the more than 90% of all people who are not Christians?
But it is easy to see how one might take on the penalty (think debt) of another.
Hmmm... "penalty" and "debt" do not seem to be synonyms.

Let's look at "penalty." Does God exact a penalty for sin? Why so? Do penalties of any kind benefit anyone?
Some parents require their children to "pay" a penalty for their misbehavior. "I told you you were not to go out with friends after 10 P.M. But you did so. So I will have to punish you. You will not be allowed go out with friends at all for a week." Penalties do not necessarily change behaviour. The punished person is just more careful the next time so that he won't be caught. The concept is that the offender must "pay" for his offence by receiving a penalty, whether he changes his behavior or not. Maybe this is what you mean by "debt"—the idea that the offender must "pay" by being punished.

One the other hand, loving parents do not think of having their children receive penalties to balance out their wrongdoing. They want their children to change their behavior and they attempt to do this out of loving correction or discipline (teaching or training). There is a great difference between "discipline" and "punishment."

God wants to discipline or correct His children—not punish them. That's why, as expressed in Titus 2, through the sacrifice of Christ, God's grace appeared:
"training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works."

Do you believe that God is obligated to PUNISH all sin, and in order to "satisfy" His need to do so, His beloved Son died in our place, and this fully satisfied Him? Would a human father who believed in punishing or penalizing his misbehaving son for wrongdoing be SATISFIED if his good son (always well-behaved) took that punishment instead?
Just wanted to refresh the thread for this wonderful post. In particular the last paragraph. The idea of substitutionary atonement is probably well past due for a revisiting.

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Paidion
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Re: Soteriology

Post by Paidion » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:19 pm

Did Jesus "take our place" and endure the punishment punishment from God that we deserved?.
George MacDonald wrote:They say first, God must punish the sinner, for justice requires it; then they say he does not punish the sinner, but punishes a perfectly righteous man instead, attributes his righteousness to the sinner, and so continues just. Was there ever such a confusion, such an inversion of right and wrong! Justice could not treat a righteous man as an unrighteous; neither, if justice required the punishment of sin, could justice let the sinner go unpunished. To lay the pain upon the righteous in the name of justice is simply monstrous. No wonder unbelief is rampant. Believe in Moloch if you will, but call him Moloch, not Justice. Be sure that the thing that God gives, the righteousness that is of God, is a real thing, and not a contemptible legalism. Pray God I have no righteousness imputed to me. Let me be regarded as the sinner I am; for nothing will serve my need but to be made a righteous man, one that will no more sin. (Unspoken Sermons III, Righteousness)
So the question for me is, "Was it necessary for Jesus, the Son of God, to die?" Yes. Certainly it was necessary, or He would not have undergone death. He prayed to his Father, "O my Father, if possible, let this cup [of suffering and death] pass from me!" (Matt 26:39). And the Father didn't release His Son from suffering and death. So it seems it was not only necessary for Jesus to suffer and die, but impossible for it to be otherwise—that is, if the purpose of God were to be realized.

So clearly it was necessary for the Son of God to die. But is that the end of the story? Does that satisfy us that the answer to Jesus' prayer showed that it was necessary? But the question is, "WHY was it necessary for the Son of God to die?" Peter, Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews answer that question plainly:

Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Many cannot accept these reasons for the death of the Messiah. They make statements such as, "No one can be sinless! So this must mean that God IMPUTES righteousness to me because of Christ's death."
No. It doesn't mean that at all. It doesn't mean that through his death Messiah imparted to us "imputed" righteousness but rather that through his death, He made possible ACTUAL righteousness. We must coöperate with his enabling grace in order to appropriate this REAL righteousness. Further more, the attainment of this righteousness is a process. This process is known as "salvation from sin," and continues throughout our lives. The process begins when we entrust our entire being to Messiah Jesus. And Paul wrote:

I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

So in the day of Jesus Christ, the process will be complete for all those in whom the process has begun. This is all made possible by the enabling grace which God made available through his Son's death:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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