The Word : The Son

[Otherness]

The WORD, The SON
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Hebrews 1
God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power...

A “word” is an expressed thought.

Its meaning in the context of the first few verses of John 1, in concert with (for example) the context of the first few verses of Hebrews 1, is that the WORD is the express thought of God (of Himself). The thought He has of Himself, “the express image (expression) of HIS PERSON,” is The SON. What is subsequently said of the WORD in John 1 is the very thing that is said of the SON in Hebrews 1.

The WORD is with GOD, the WORD is GOD, GOD is the WORD. In other words, the SON is with GOD, the SON is GOD, GOD is the SON. This dynamic of the Being of God is the “logos and (therefore, the) dunamis” of Creation : its reason, and power, to be.

The Omega of Creation, the Perfect Man (Ephesians 4: 13) that the Body of Christ is destined to be, is predestined in that the Alpha is the “SON with the Father” in glory before the world began (John 17:5).

There really is no room here for any thought that the “locus of consciousness” Who is “the Word” (HE...Who is the maker of all things that are made), is any other than the “locus of consciousness” Who is the Son (“by whom also He made the worlds,” and is “upholding all things by the word of his power”).

The whole purpose of God in Creation (from before the beginning to after the end) is sons (and daughters) in, of, and from (because of) the SON.
What we have in the trinitarian formulation is Who (and WHAT) God (the Creator) IS...and “then” the “beginning” happens!

Now, “all things that are made” (can) begin to be made because they will (now), BY NATURE, (eventually) be(come) subject to WHAT was determined before the beginning : the SON, in WHOM is the “beginning” of creation, will, organically lead to the Body of the SON.

The Word (the SON of God) is made flesh (the Son of man). HE Who was slain from (before) the foundation of the world (Revelation 13: 8) is the surety of the Body (of Christ).

[darinhouston]

The WORD, The SON
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Hebrews 1
God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power...

Much of that was a bit hard to follow, but I would translate that a bit differently (as you might expect). The word there is not anything approaching the "world" as you perceive it - that might be something like κοσμοσ (cosmos) or the like - instead, it is a form of aionios - "ages" (αιωνας) - that makes perfect sense in light of the first part of that verse introducing the last days in which he has now spoken ("eschaton") - this is the context of the verse, not Creation. You might then ask then why is the word "created" used - and that's another excellent question - the word there shouldn't be reflexively translated as "created." Even though the same greek word (ἐποίησεν) is used as in Gen 1:1, it's also frequently translated as "do" or "perform" instead of "created". But among its very wide semantic range is also the concept of being "fulfilled" or "accomplished" or "put into execution" - this is EXACTLY the story of Jesus - the perfecter of the ages - the one who accomplishes in these last days everything foretold and predestined throughout the ages. I think that's a better translation and consistent with the overall teachings on Christ.

[darinhouston]

This has made me question the rest of the verse, too. I have to acknowledge I can be coming at this with a naive beginner grammar, but translation committees are not always as careful as they could be, either. In line with my prior thoughts on this verse, I have to question the phrase

"upholding all things by the word of his power..."

as well. It seems trivial, but there is no greek that would convey "of his" in that passage. There is a following "αὑτοῦ" but that goes with the remaining part of the passage and not this one. The term translated "upholding" (φέρων) is just as appropriately "brings forward" or bear or carry or lead and such. (note the greek term for word here is ῥήματι and not logos, so another hint that we're talking about prophetic or historic words). So, consistent with my prior translation, I would have to suggest:

"brings forward all things by the power of the word..."

could be considered. This would fit the earlier discussion of him fulfilling and carrying forward what the word spoke of in the prophets and so forth. He had prophecy on his side and all the things that the prophets spoke of came to be through him.

[darinhouston]

Very interesting issue as I dig deeper - I don't see this verse making the lists of textual variants, but when I look at various texts there is considerable variation in this verse. Just pulling three of them...

Heb 1:3
(SBLG) ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως, ▼ δι᾽ αὑτοῦ ⸃ καθαρισμὸν ▼ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ποιησάμενος ⸃ ἐκάθισεν ἐν δεξιᾷ τῆς μεγαλωσύνης ἐν ὑψηλοῖς,

(TR) ος ων απαυγασμα της δοξης και χαρακτηρ της υποστασεως αυτου φερων τε τα παντα τω ρηματι της δυναμεως αυτου δι εαυτου καθαρισμον ποιησαμενος των αμαρτιων ημων εκαθισεν εν δεξια της μεγαλωσυνης εν υψηλοις

(Nestle) ος ων απαυγασμα της δοξης και χαρακτηρ της υποστασεως αυτου φερων τε τα παντα τω ρηματι της δυναμεως αυτου καθαρισμον των αμαρτιων ποιησαμενος εκαθισεν εν δεξια της μεγαλωσυνης εν υψηλοις

[Otherness]

Greetings Darin,

Setting aside your objection (for a moment) please note another example that is in the same context as the first few verses of John 1.

Colossians 1: 15-17 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”

Little commentary is necessary to amplify this identification and description of Who (and What) this “locus of consciousness” is. This is the IMAGE (expression of the thought) God has of Himself. Were God (Who is Pure Spirit) to have “form,” then this is the form He IS (Philippians 2: 6). Again, this is the THOUGHT He has of Himself EXPRESSED...just as an expressed thought is a word...so is He called The WORD.

This state of the Being of God, this Expression of Himself in Himself, is the dynamic (dunamis) of Creation (before any act of creation), and, of course, its logos. Within this Dimension of His Being [this “offspring” (Son) of His Being], all things (that are made) are made and held together (consist). It is for this reason that “all that is made” groans and travails till this truth is itself manifest in the creation itself (Romans 8: 19, 22). His incarnation, life, death, and resurrection in the organic whole that Creation IS...inexorably (re)generates it in His Image (the Body of Christ).

The words that THE WORD speaks becomes HIS created reality, and that created reality must inevitably be(come) what HE SAYS IT IS in the face of its ability (freedom) to be other than this. All this because Jesus is...God...present in His Creation!

Regarding the objection you raised concerning “aionios” being translated “world” in Hebrews 1: 2 please note that the Hebrew equivalent of “aionios,” as it is used in the Septuagint, is “olam.” This word, from ancient times, has been used in speaking about the “world” in terms of its temporal dimension, rather than in terms of its spatial dimension. The “world” is not only thought of as “created things” in space, but equally as “created things” existing in time. As a consequence of this usage in Hebrew thought “olam” (aionios in Greek) became a symbol of “the world” itself. There are many examples of this, and one of the most well known is Tikkun Olam : “repairing of the world.” As you know, words do this...they take on meanings in usage that have no immediate inference from their etymology.

In the love of Jesus.

[Otherness]

The following objection is lifted out of a different thread, but is certainly apropos to this one.

>>>there are dozens of points of logic that cannot be explained if the Trinity is true, such as why, after his resurrection, Jesus spoke of having a “God. God does not have a God—He is God.<<<

This statement [as part of (and central to) a much longer critique of “the Trinity”] reveals the fundamental error of all subsequent “logic” that finds fault with the trinitarian formula.

The logic that “demands” a non-trinitarian interpretation is not sufficient to explain not only the entirety of the scriptural data, but, even more critically, it wholly fails in the face of such revelations as : “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Reading this revelation outside the trinitarian model is, analogously, like trying to play 3-D chess with a strictly 2-D chess focus. That is, there's just so much more going on than what is being considered.

God's creation derives its multi-dimensional quality from the Nature of God Himself. It's not that “God has a God,” rather it is that God has an EXPRESS IMAGE of Himself (with Himself) -- Who is the Logos (of Creation). This EXPRESS IMAGE of Himself is the FORM that dictates the whole trajectory of His creative labor, leading to children bearing this form He has as God.

This “God with God” (John 1:1) state of His Being is Him being Who (What) He “needs” (desires) to be...to be the Creator of that which He desires to create. The dynamic of His Consciousness existing in distinct dimensions of His Being, along with His unique identity in each dimension, is the matrix of creation. In the dimension of His Being in which He is The Word (the Son) He takes on the burden (and all that entails throughout time) of the existence of Creation itself. This includes, of course, the necessity of incarnating, living (as a man), dying (as a man), and resurrecting to carry Creation to its (His) Omega. In performing this service...as a (true) man... for Creation, He calls upon God in God's dimension as “Father.”

So, it is not that trinitarianism is saying that “God has a God,” but, in its internal consistency, that the Word, in His fleshly service, relied upon God (the Father), Whom He was WITH “before the world was” (John 17: 5).

Love, in the Beloved.

[darinhouston]

I'm sorry but while much of what you say tries to resonate and I think there's something in there that we could agree on and tease truth out a bit, I then lose your track completely and just don't really understand what you're trying to say. No offense, but it's a bit esoteric and hard to follow.

[Otherness]

Darinhouston>>>I'm sorry but while much of what you say tries to resonate and I think there's something in there that we could agree on and tease truth out a bit, I then lose your track completely and just don't really understand what you're trying to say. No offense, but it's a bit esoteric and hard to follow.<<<

I'm more than happy to justify, magnify, and amplify every “jot and tittle” of what I say here. Whatever it is that is (in your words) “in there that we could agree on” would be a good place to start. From my perspective these ideas and concepts are not especially difficult or “esoteric” in themselves. It's more that they are a VERY DIFFERENT way of coming at a problem that cannot be (has not been) solved (even between us Christians) by the old ways of thinking about it.

As I have said many times in these posts I firmly believe God is helping us with this by the discoveries that humanity is making as it probes the depths of the nature of created reality. Yes...of course...the better the natural world is understood the greater the glory redounds to God.

For instance, as referenced previously : witness the words of Sheldon Glashow, Nobel Laureate in Physics (and atheist), lamenting that “contemplation of superstrings may evolve into an activity as remote from conventional particle physics as particle physics is from chemistry, to be conducted at schools of divinity by future equivalents of medieval theologians…for the first time since the Dark Ages, we can see how our noble search may end, WITH FAITH REPLACING SCIENCE ONCE AGAIN.”

Something profoundly “different” has worked its way into the brightest (secular) minds beginning about 100 years ago. Their own testimony is that “we show that quantum mechanics is the first theory in human history that violates the basic a priori principles THAT HAVE SHAPED HUMAN THOUGHT SINCE IMMEMORIAL TIMES.”  (https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01 ... ussion.pdf).

Human thought, the structure of human thought itself, the categories in which the human mind processes and integrates “knowledge” (ala Kant), is undergoing a radical paradigm shift because of what quantum theory is revealing about the nature of (created) reality.

It is not that a great intelligence is necessary to grasp it, but rather a willingness to “let” these discoveries undo the “hard-wiring of the brain” that holds it in bondage to a natural, physical, material understanding of our (created) reality.

As I've said here repeatedly, I believe in the Trinity, from the get-go, because of the testimony of Scripture. And I see, in the testimony of God's Creation the evidence that not only is it so, but it really couldn't be any other way. Just as Christianity is really the only truly historical religion (incarnation, life, death, resurrection), so also what it says about Nature is the only Truth.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, AND MY THOUGHTS THAN YOUR THOUGHTS” (Isaiah 55: 8-9).

I do believe that the earth (in our days) is opening its mouth not only to swallow all the flood of lies and deceptions that have been told about it, but also to speak God's Truth about itself.

The earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof.