The Deity of Jesus

[dwight92070]

Mark 5:19-20 The story of the demoniac among the tombs - Jesus cast the demons out by permitting them to go into the herd of pigs. The man who had been demon-possessed implored Jesus that he might leave with Him and his disciples in the boat. But Jesus tells him, "Go home to your people and report to them what great things the LORD has done for you, and how He had mercy on you." Then Mark adds, "And he went away and began to proclaim in Decapolis what great things JESUS had done for him ..."

We know that "Lord" here could be Jesus referring to Himself, or it could be Jesus referring to the LORD GOD.

We get a clue as to which it is in the same account in Luke 8:39, where Jesus says: "Return to your house and describe what great things GOD has done for you." Then Luke adds, "So he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things JESUS had done for him."

So, from that clue, we see that Jesus is referring to the LORD GOD, yet both Mark and Luke report that the man proclaims JESUS as the One who had delivered him.

Some will say that Jesus is simply acting on behalf of God, so it's really God who delivered him. Some will also say that when we give praise to Jesus, we are really praising God for what He did through Jesus. Or that we are praising Jesus because God allows that, even though Jesus is not God.

All of that is confused mumbo-jumbo. The truth is that the Lord God and the Lord Jesus are equally One and that their names are used both individually and interchangeably in the New Testament, and these verses are a prime example of just that.

When the former demoniac was proclaiming JESUS as his deliverer, he was obeying Jesus Who told him to give glory to THE LORD GOD. JESUS IS THE LORD GOD! Even the demoniac knew that. Unless we are to believe that the demoniac disobeyed Jesus, that He gave credit to Jesus instead of God. That's very unlikely, since his whole world was instantly changed. Luke tells us that he was SITTING DOWN AT THE FEET OF JESUS, CLOTHED AND IN HIS RIGHT MIND. AND HE WAS BEGGING JESUS THAT HE MIGHT BE WITH HIM, WHEN HE LEFT WITH HIS DISCIPLES. He loved Jesus - the last thing that he wanted to do was to disobey Him.

It's not mumbo jumbo - it's exactly what we see in scripture - God did such and such for (or to) Israel when it was others doing it. It's a both and. Both Jesus did it (in the power of the Spirit) and God did it (through Jesus). It's really not that complicated. When we're on a mission for our local congregation - storm relief or whatever, it's not uncommon to hear people talk about what our church did for them in some contexts and also to tell us thanks for what we did. This is just the way normal people talk when agency is involved.

These are not concepts that I am not fully aware of, but to say that "it's exactly what we see in scripture" is not the correct. If that is all there is to it, then there is no mystery in Christ, as you said "it's really not that complicated". We can understand this earthly concept. But Christ is "God's mystery"- Colossians 2:2, "in Whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." 2 Corinthians 5:19 says "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself." "For in Him (Christ) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, ..." Colossians 2:9 Yes, God works through Christ, but Christ is also God in the flesh, doing what only God can do. It is a mystery and it is complicated, far beyond our "wisdom and knowledge". As some have said, we can apprehend it, but we can't comprehend it. We have given it a name - the Trinity, but no one can fully understand it on this earth. Maybe we will in heaven.

[darinhouston]

These are not concepts that I am not fully aware of, but to say that "it's exactly what we see in scripture" is not the correct. If that is all there is to it, then there is no mystery in Christ, as you said "it's really not that complicated". We can understand this earthly concept. But Christ is "God's mystery"- Colossians 2:2, "in Whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." 2 Corinthians 5:19 says "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself." "For in Him (Christ) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, ..." Colossians 2:9 Yes, God works through Christ, but Christ is also God in the flesh, doing what only God can do. It is a mystery and it is complicated, far beyond our "wisdom and knowledge". As some have said, we can apprehend it, but we can't comprehend it. We have given it a name - the Trinity, but no one can fully understand it on this earth. Maybe we will in heaven.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but -- good grief!! -- it's so hard to carry on a conversation with you. You seem to have a very difficult time sticking to a particular course of conversation. Of course, Jesus and God and all things spiritual are "complicated" and "mysterious." What I was specifically referring to about not being complicated was the figure of speech - the way we talk about something being done by another even when we're the one doing it (and so forth) -- what you referred to as "mumbo jumbo." Not EVERYTHING about God and Jesus and how they relate to one another, existentially.

[dwight92070]

These are not concepts that I am not fully aware of, but to say that "it's exactly what we see in scripture" is not the correct. If that is all there is to it, then there is no mystery in Christ, as you said "it's really not that complicated". We can understand this earthly concept. But Christ is "God's mystery"- Colossians 2:2, "in Whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." 2 Corinthians 5:19 says "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself." "For in Him (Christ) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, ..." Colossians 2:9 Yes, God works through Christ, but Christ is also God in the flesh, doing what only God can do. It is a mystery and it is complicated, far beyond our "wisdom and knowledge". As some have said, we can apprehend it, but we can't comprehend it. We have given it a name - the Trinity, but no one can fully understand it on this earth. Maybe we will in heaven.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but -- good grief!! -- it's so hard to carry on a conversation with you. You seem to have a very difficult time sticking to a particular course of conversation. Of course, Jesus and God and all things spiritual are "complicated" and "mysterious." What I was specifically referring to about not being complicated was the figure of speech - the way we talk about something being done by another even when we're the one doing it (and so forth) -- what you referred to as "mumbo jumbo." Not EVERYTHING about God and Jesus and how they relate to one another, existentially.

And you seem to ignore my direct answer to exactly what you were referring to. I said, "These are not concepts that I am not fully aware of, but to say that "it's exactly what we see in scripture" is not correct. Therein is the confusion and the mumbo-jumbo. It is NOT exactly what we see in scripture, at least not in the case of Jesus and God, which was the original topic, specifically relating to the deliverance of the demoniac.
"The way we talk about something being done by another even when we're the one doing it". If you're referring to men and how we do things, I agreed with you - it is not complicated. But when we speak of God and Jesus, it is NOT the same. Jesus is not simply the agent or representative of God. He is God in the flesh. So we have God and God in the flesh. Jesus delivers the demoniac and then commands him to go to his people and tell them what great things the LORD GOD has done for him. Jesus is telling the man that He (Jesus) is the LORD GOD. Then the man goes to his people and tells them what Jesus has done, again recognizing that Jesus is the LORD GOD.
I have not strayed from the original topic of the deliverance of the demoniac, and how it points out that Jesus is God Everything I have said was with that in mind.

[darinhouston]

These are not concepts that I am not fully aware of, but to say that "it's exactly what we see in scripture" is not the correct. If that is all there is to it, then there is no mystery in Christ, as you said "it's really not that complicated". We can understand this earthly concept. But Christ is "God's mystery"- Colossians 2:2, "in Whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." 2 Corinthians 5:19 says "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself." "For in Him (Christ) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, ..." Colossians 2:9 Yes, God works through Christ, but Christ is also God in the flesh, doing what only God can do. It is a mystery and it is complicated, far beyond our "wisdom and knowledge". As some have said, we can apprehend it, but we can't comprehend it. We have given it a name - the Trinity, but no one can fully understand it on this earth. Maybe we will in heaven.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but -- good grief!! -- it's so hard to carry on a conversation with you. You seem to have a very difficult time sticking to a particular course of conversation. Of course, Jesus and God and all things spiritual are "complicated" and "mysterious." What I was specifically referring to about not being complicated was the figure of speech - the way we talk about something being done by another even when we're the one doing it (and so forth) -- what you referred to as "mumbo jumbo." Not EVERYTHING about God and Jesus and how they relate to one another, existentially.

And you seem to ignore my direct answer to exactly what you were referring to. I said, "These are not concepts that I am not fully aware of, but to say that "it's exactly what we see in scripture" is not correct. Therein is the confusion and the mumbo-jumbo. It is NOT exactly what we see in scripture, at least not in the case of Jesus and God, which was the original topic, specifically relating to the deliverance of the demoniac.
"The way we talk about something being done by another even when we're the one doing it". If you're referring to men and how we do things, I agreed with you - it is not complicated. But when we speak of God and Jesus, it is NOT the same. Jesus is not simply the agent or representative of God. He is God in the flesh. So we have God and God in the flesh. Jesus delivers the demoniac and then commands him to go to his people and tell them what great things the LORD GOD has done for him. Jesus is telling the man that He (Jesus) is the LORD GOD. Then the man goes to his people and tells them what Jesus has done, again recognizing that Jesus is the LORD GOD.
I have not strayed from the original topic of the deliverance of the demoniac, and how it points out that Jesus is God Everything I have said was with that in mind.

I give up - you simply don't see the point I'm making.

[dwight92070]

I can't believe you. I have deliberately tried to answer you as directly as possible in every post. Apparently I will have to give up also because I see no reason why you don't understand what I'm saying.

[dwight92070]

I think your complaining about my not seeing your point, could just be a smokescreen, so you don't have to deal with the truth of the responses that I gave you TO YOUR POINT. Also, you yourself take us away from the original passage about the demoniac. So you are not sticking to the original point, but attempting to lead us on to a rabbit trail.

[dwight92070]

If we take people's intellect out of sermons and books, there would be nothing left.

There you go again, relying on your intellect to try to teach us that we can't rely on our intellect. You can't see the forest because the trees are in the way.
Just a bald assertion based in unbelief of supernatural realities.
That is false. I believe in supernatural realities. The Bible tells us about them in Bible times and in our lives. I used my brain to accept that reality.

The natural man does not understand the things of God for they are spiritually discerned by the Spirit.

I am not a natural man. I am a new creation, created in Christ Jesus. I abide in Jesus, and He abides in me. The Holy Spirit is in me. My brain knows this because the Bible tells me that that is true.

It literally flat out says that, and is backed up by hundreds of other verses describing the need for God to reveal truth.

Thy word is truth. Through His word, which I understand relying on my intellect, I know much truth. I don't know it all, but I know what the Bible teaches me.

I can't entertain a spirit of unbelief exalting naturalistic ways to know God through intellect, sorry.

I don't have a spirit of unbelief. Jesus said, "Believe in God, believe also in Me." He also said, "Man does not live on bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." I have my faith in Jesus and His word.

Too many people rely on their own intellect and spend all their time on the sermons and books of other peoples' intellects, instead of simply, directly and persistently asking God. The reason I am completely confident about what I believe is not because someone convinced me or I figured it out, but I actually spent the time humbling myself and just directly asking God for prolonged periods of time.

That's one of your problems. Jesus said, " ... when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you." When you boast about your humility and directly asking God and spending "prolonged periods of time" in prayer, you already have your "reward". Your reward is that some people are really impressed by that and must really think of you as a great spiritual man. I'm not impressed by your boasting, and frankly, I know God isn't either.

When I delve into other people's prayer lives who believe some false thing, I have not yet found a single one who has consistently done this.

What are you doing delving into other people's prayer lives? That's not your business. Remember, Jesus said that is a secret between them and God. If they pray in secret, God will reward them openly. That's how you know about their prayer lives - by their fruit. Not by them boasting about their "humility" and spending long periods of time in prayer.

You can "interpret" the Bible to literally be anything, and this is why you have so many factions all completely convinced of their unique interpretation.

In some passages, the meaning is unclear, and therefore there will be many interpretations. But the majority of the Bible is very clear and understanding it is not that difficult. Remember, too, that God has called some to be pastors and teachers. We can glean much from them, even without spending hours and hours in prayer.

It would be enlightening to see that logic is not what guides us into beliefs
Yes, the Holy Spirit guides us as we use our hearts and brains to gain truth

—the Bible attributes false doctrines to deceiving spirits,
The very definition of deceiving, which we can only understand with our brain, is "to be misled by falsehood." So it takes truth, only understood by our intellect and heart, to be free of deception. "You shall KNOW the truth, and the truth will make you free."

not to intellectually or morally inferior people.
Actually intellectually or morally inferior people are very easily led into false doctrine and are often led by deceiving spirits.


It is the pride of man that insists his intellect discovers God and his truth.

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." The wise man, using both his intellect and his heart, knows that there is a God. Yes, God draws him and often uses his intellect to bring him to the truth.

[dizerner]

To know whether something is boasting or not, is not just mentioning whether it happened. A person could say, "I can bench press 400 pounds," but that statement alone is not proof of boasting. Boasting speaks to the reason the person talks about it. Someone may have asked the information to see if they could lift a car to help save someone.

There is no Bible verse forbidding discussing times of prayer for instructional purposes, and you have evilly judged my motives and heart by accusing me of boasting, something you cannot know and only God can know. And I was not depending on my intellect making those points one bit, another false accusation from you.

Because you seem unaware of your logical errors, yet fully convinced of your position, there might be a spiritual blindness only the Lord could heal. Paul says a veil lies over the Jews' hearts, and only the Lord can take that veil away. I pray the Lord "open" the eyes of your heart as Paul prayed, not reward your powerful intellect as Satan would have it.

I've prayed for you and witnessed to the truth, I will see you on judgment day where you will be accountable for your evil accusations of me unless you repent. I pray mercy upon you, urge such repentance, and wish the very best for you!

[dizerner]

And for Biblical proof:

I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. - 1 Cor. 14:18

To declare this, Paul openly state an approximation of both how much personal prayer he had, and those to whom he wrote.

Unless you want to bite the bullet and call Paul a proud boaster for instructing the Corinthians.

And that he lost all his rewards by so doing.

[dwight92070]

To know whether something is boasting or not, is not just mentioning whether it happened. A person could say, "I can bench press 400 pounds," but that statement alone is not proof of boasting. Boasting speaks to the reason the person talks about it. Someone may have asked the information to see if they could lift a car to help save someone.

There is no Bible verse forbidding discussing times of prayer for instructional purposes, and you have evilly judged my motives and heart by accusing me of boasting, something you cannot know and only God can know. And I was not depending on my intellect making those points one bit, another false accusation from you.

Because you seem unaware of your logical errors, yet fully convinced of your position, there might be a spiritual blindness only the Lord could heal. Paul says a veil lies over the Jews' hearts, and only the Lord can take that veil away. I pray the Lord "open" the eyes of your heart as Paul prayed, not reward your powerful intellect as Satan would have it.

I've prayed for you and witnessed to the truth, I will see you on judgment day where you will be accountable for your evil accusations of me unless you repent. I pray mercy upon you, urge such repentance, and wish the very best for you!

So your accusations against me were not evil? You accused me of "a bald assertion based on unbelief of supernatural realities", of having "a spirit of unbelief exalting naturalistic ways to know God", and of having "the pride of man that insists his intellect discovers God and His truth." These also are things that you cannot know and only God can know. Will you also be accountable on judgment day for your evil accusations?