The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Homer
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The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by Homer » Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:29 pm

I have long believed that Christianity is a simple religion , that is, what must be believed to be saved, to be a Christian, is simple. I say this as one who believes that the Trinity is the best explanation of the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I speak here of what is necessary to believe. What is better or best to believe is another matter.

I base my position mostly on the "conversion narratives" we read in the Book of Acts. There are about eleven or so. In reading them I do not see any preaching by the Apostles/evangelists that would require belief in or imply the Trinity of later creeds. What I see is preaching Jesus as Lord, Christ, Son of God, Jesus made both Lord and Christ, good news about the Kingdom, etc. No elaborations about Christology. And we read of thousands saved on those terms. I conclude that the doctrine of the Trinity is not a salvation issue.

Years ago a man who I worked closely with was a member of the Seventh Day Assembly of God, definitely a non-Trinitarian. He was one of the most Godly men I ever knew, and I considered him to be my Christian brother.

All this is not to say the Trinity is not good to be believed. It has a useful benefit in apologetics. Christians very early on were accused of being polytheists. To answer this challenge, the Trinity, or something like it, is of much help. It is interesting to discuss the many non-essential doctrines, but IMO how we love, or fail to, love our neighbor is more important.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dizerner » Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:16 pm

There's a fundamental assumption that does seep in sometimes to Christians, that we are in fact saved by being good people and having good behavior. When we discuss the fundamentals of the Gospel, we have to start as most central and important the fact that God needs to do the saving and not our own goodness we somehow achieve. The fact is, Christ's Cross represents God doing for us, bridging the perfection we could never achieve by living holy enough, and all world religions and moralities will exalt the ability of man to be good, and many people who completely rejected the Cross of Christ can seem very nice and moral people who should deserve heaven.

But the enlightenment of the Spirit upon the Word shows all people as not being "good enough," as we are just experts at hiding our sin, and horizontal morality is not even nearly as important as perfectly valuing God in all things.

This does tie back to one's view of the Trinity, because if Jesus is just a glorified man who lived really good, then maybe he is more of an example than a Savior, maybe he is more of standard we are suppose to live up to, than an undeserved gift of grace that did for us what we could never do for ourselves. The infinite and unthinkable condescension of God becoming one of us to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves, is extremely humbling to the pride of our flesh that wants to feel like we contribute some goodness and righteousness by our efforts.

My baseline for salvific belief is that God sent Jesus to suffer for our sins against him, and trusting somewhere to some degree in what Christ did for us as a gift of grace. One can believe in a kind of atonement without realizing that Christ is of course necessarily deity, and that belief only comes by revelation not by intellectual endeavor.

You will find that people on both sides of the ditch, those who think they can earn heaven with moral living, and those with a very "loose" corral of who gets saved making the way becoming broad and easy—tend to not like the offense the Cross brings to us when we necessarily have to trust in it to be saved.

peace
Last edited by dizerner on Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Homer
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Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by Homer » Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:40 pm

Dizerner,

I think the lyrics of this song sum it up pretty well:

https://www.bing.com/search?q=lyrics+yo ... 01&PC=U531

dizerner

Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dizerner » Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:41 pm

Homer, I appreciate the sentiment and as Christians we should love holiness.

But God saves sinners, not holy people. We get this idea that because the Holy Spirit will change us for the better, that in fact, this sanctification contributes to our salvation to some degree. But our salvation is based on Jesus suffering for our sins, not on how holy we live.

There are many, many Christians who live very sinful lifestyles yet profess faith in Christ. This does not necessarily forfeit the atonement for them, as the atonement is not based on how good we live or how well we perform. There are Christians who gossip and don't love their neighbors who trust in the Blood of Jesus to save them, and they will be in heaven, because trust in the Cross is what saves us, not our performance or goodness.

Assuredly sinful Christians will receive serious discipline and a loss of rewards—but we do not get to heaven by living holy enough. That is, in fact, a system of self-righteous attainment based on merit through works of the Law.

It was not the holier man who went home justified in the parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee. It was the man who admitted just how sinful he was, and just how much he did NOT love his neighbor and DID gossip.

Let's transfer our trust to the Suffering of Christ and not our own righteous attainments.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:39 pm

"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, etc." Hebrews 6:1

This verse describes the foundation of salvation, but we are told not to "camp here", we are told to press on to maturity. Jesus said,"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." There's much more to the gospel than just salvation. Yes, our salvation is paramount, but now we must follow and obey Him. We cannot stop and get side-tracked, focusing on the elementary teaching about the Christ, which keeps us from moving on. We are commanded to grow up and learn from Him. If we obey and abide in Him, we will bear much fruit.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:41 pm

One of the teachings of the scripture, which goes beyond the elemental teaching about Christ is that God the Father calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8 and Psalm 45:6. He also calls Jesus Yahweh in Hebrews 1:10 and Psalm 102:25. So in reference to Hebrews 6:1, we know that calling Jesus God and Yahweh, as God the Father did, is part of our maturing process as a disciple of Jesus. Our salvation may not depend on that knowledge, but our maturing and our bearing fruit does.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by darinhouston » Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:16 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:41 pm
One of the teachings of the scripture, which goes beyond the elemental teaching about Christ is that God the Father calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8 and Psalm 45:6. He also calls Jesus Yahweh in Hebrews 1:10 and Psalm 102:25. So in reference to Hebrews 6:1, we know that calling Jesus God and Yahweh, as God the Father did, is part of our maturing process as a disciple of Jesus. Our salvation may not depend on that knowledge, but our maturing and our bearing fruit does.
So much to say on this - I'll address each scripture but the conclusion also doesn't follow - even if it's true, there is nothing in these verses to suggest that calling Jesus God/Yahweh (even if true) is part of a maturing process or that bearing fruit depends on it.

In Hebrews 1:8 and Psalm 45:6, both verses are related to the phrase in Ps 45:6 often translated such as "Your throne, O God, is forever." First, and foremost you mention this is a reference to Yahweh - it is not - it uses the more generic term Elohim, which has a broad range of meanings, even including just the simple concept of being "great" or having "authority." It is applied to numerous humans in scripture and is simply not a clear reference to the eternal God. But, there are many other translational and interpretational issues with that passage - here's a lengthy commentary discussing many of them (https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/P ... hapter45/6) , but one important thing to consider is that everyone concedes that it has a dual fulfillment in view and that the immediate fulfillment is David/Solomon and so forth and no Jew would have had a problem with it referring to David's throne and no one believes David was Yahweh. We do confirm in Hebrews that this was primarily about Jesus but it definitely has "dual application" and therefore is unlikely to be a reference to Jesus "as" Yahweh simply because it uses the term Elohim in reference to the throne/rule.

Incidentally, it's worth noting that later in that same passage, God also notes that He (Yahweh) is the Son's God - not just his Father. It's hard to fathom if he is God in any sense you mean that he would either "have" a God or need to be anointed (or that it would be noteworthy that the anointing would be above his "fellows.")

Similarly, in Hebrews 1:10 Yahweh is again not used in reference to Jesus but not even Elohim but the even more commonly used kyrios - simply "lord."

Psalm 102:25 also doesn't use the term Yahweh or in this case even make reference to any particular title or descriptor. It does seem to suggest Jesus was in some way part of original creation, but as I see John 1 "sounding like" a reference to Jesus being a part of ex nihilo creation in the beginning of everything but being applied to the New Kingdom - the Re-Creation, I think this could similarly be applied to say Jesus is the god and creator of the New Heavens and New Earth in much the same way Yahweh created the original heavens and earth... and so forth. It's a secondary fulfillment and so doesn't have to be a 1:1 proof-text. This is a somewhat speculative interpretative approach but makes sense of many problematic passages to my mind and better coheres with the rest of plain scripture to me.

A couple of these are at least debatable, but others seem just dishonest to suggest that they clearly call Jesus Yahweh.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by darinhouston » Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:32 pm

I would also suggest that the idea that increasing "knowledge" gives rise to spiritual maturity or fruit is pretty much a gnostic idea (which I believe the Trinity arises from, incidentally). Increasing knowledge cures ignorance - not fruitlessness or immaturity.

If we're talking not about "knowledge" but "profession" then we run the risk of a shibboleth of sorts. Something you don't have to really understand or believe as long as you make sure you say the right words or speak the right way about it.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:02 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:16 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:41 pm
One of the teachings of the scripture, which goes beyond the elemental teaching about Christ is that God the Father calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8 and Psalm 45:6. He also calls Jesus Yahweh in Hebrews 1:10 and Psalm 102:25. So in reference to Hebrews 6:1, we know that calling Jesus God and Yahweh, as God the Father did, is part of our maturing process as a disciple of Jesus. Our salvation may not depend on that knowledge, but our maturing and our bearing fruit does.
So much to say on this - I'll address each scripture but the conclusion also doesn't follow - even if it's true, there is nothing in these verses to suggest that calling Jesus God/Yahweh (even if true) is part of a maturing process or that bearing fruit depends on it.

In Hebrews 1:8 and Psalm 45:6, both verses are related to the phrase in Ps 45:6 often translated such as "Your throne, O God, is forever." First, and foremost you mention this is a reference to Yahweh - it is not - it uses the more generic term Elohim,

Dwight - You are mistaken. I did not say that Hebrews 1:8 and Psalm 45:6 specifically refer to Yahweh (although it does appear that Elohim and Yahweh are One and the same) Rather, and I'll quote myself, "He also calls Jesus Yahweh in Hebrews 1:10 and Psalm 102:25."

Dwight - Psalm 102 uses the word "Lord" 8 times throughout the chapter- 7 are the word "Yahweh" and one is "Yah", a short version of "Yahweh". It also uses the word "God" once, which is "El", which is a reference to the same "Yahweh" that the entire chapter is addressed to - Psalm 102:1 "Hear my prayer, O Yahweh." So all of Psalm 102 is addressed to "Yahweh".
In Hebrews 1:10, the author is continuing his reference to Jesus (Hebrews 1:8) but at the same time quoting Psalm 102:25 - "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands."
So the author of Hebrews is equating the Son, Jesus, with Yahweh in Psalm 102. Yes, he addresses Jesus as Lord (kyrios). but in inserting Jesus into Psalm 102, He is equating the two - Jesus and Yahweh.


Psalm 102:25 also doesn't use the term Yahweh or in this case even make reference to any particular title or descriptor.

Dwight - No, but the author refers to "You", which is Yahweh, the same One who is addressed throughout the chapter - 8 times, and the same One that the author of Hebrews equates with the Lord Jesus in Hebrews 1:10.

Dwight - In one of your posts, you said, basically, that even if Jesus was Yahweh, that that still is not an indication that He is God (my paraphrase). I beg your pardon, but Yahweh is the God of creation Whose years will not come to an end (Psalm 102), the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is El, the Father, Elohim, Kyrios, and the Son, Jesus. There is only one true God, and He hold all of these titles and more.
Last edited by dwight92070 on Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Trinity: What Must Be Believed

Post by darinhouston » Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:13 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:02 pm
It's mind boggling how you could accept Jesus being the god and creator of the New Heavens and the New Earth, but not the GOD who created the original heavens and earth. There are no "little g 'gods'", except false gods, Satan, or demons, so Jesus does not fit into that category. He is either God or He is not God. The author of Hebrews clearly exalts Him as God, never as a "little g 'god'".
I'm not sure I am fully on board with New Heavens and New Earth to the extent it refers to the ultimate recreation at the end of the eschaton. But, there is a sense in which I do believe language like this is appropriate to refer to the spiritual kingdom which Jesus has been granted lordship over as the second Adam and which we all belong to today. It is that kingdom which I believe was ushered into by his life, death and resurrection and which I believe is the primary subject in John's epistles (the "beginning" John speaks of being essentially the beginning of his ministry).

As to the little g issue, I suggest you might consider a word study on the subject. Maybe start with Exodus 7:1; 21:6; 22:8, 9, and 28. Maybe also John 10:34.

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