Who is the Alpha & Omega?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
Otherness
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by Otherness » Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:29 pm

Dwight>>>Okay, let's get into the weeds, with your mystical and baffling statements. I hope to minimize the length of this (I hate LONG posts) by just quoting the first few words of your sentences, and not the whole sentence, so you'll know which sentence I'm referring to.<<<

Yes, long posts are problematic, but sometimes unavoidable. I'm breaking up my reply to you here into more than 2 posts to keep each one at a reasonable length. My reply is (really) long because I stayed with, and in, the details of your post, remaining as close to your thoughts [not omitting any of them] as possible out of respect for your concerns. Mostly I write in the “objective voice” to keep the temperature down in these kind of “disputes.” My formatting has your thoughts, even quoting me, within these >>>...<<< key strokes, and all else are my new replies. I've peppered (really, salted) my reply with biblical references, but just as much leaving those references out because I know you know the words of Scripture.

>>>"Logic can be a very slithery thing …" It can be those things, but it doesn't have to be.<<<

Yes, this is what I said.

>>>"... walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." Galatians 5:16<<<

Walking by the Spirit does not mean you will never stumble (even logically). Peter stumbled in the way he was thinking (and thus behaving), and Paul pointed out to him that he was being “illogical.”

>>>You seem to assume that using our logic ALWAYS produces those things.<<<

No, that cannot be said about what I said.

>>>Logic is NOT listed as a work of the flesh: Galatians 5:19-21>>>

It is so obviously true that the fleshly mind works to corrupt the logical processing of thought. Thus are we admonished to “walk circumspectly” because the devil, amongst all that he does, also corrupts logic to deceive. Do we not see, abundantly clearly in our day, the foolishness of those who claim to be wise (woke / logical).

>>>How does logic "work it's way from Creator to creation?"<<<

By way of the LOGOS. Logos and logic are cognates. The Logos is the logic of Creation. In the Beginning (Revelation 3:14) Creation began (Alpha) with the built in Logic that would cause it to reach the end (Omega) God desired : the Body of Christ. This is the predestination taught in the Bible.

>>>We know that God created man with a brain, and therefore, logic. There's no transmission of logic CONTINUALLY happening from God to His creation, as your statement suggests.<<<

I disagree. So logically does creation flow that even a sparrow falling to the ground works out to the good of what God is doing in forming us who love Him. Yes...the logic of Creation works (absolutely) EVERTHING to this end : the Body of Christ.

>>>Yes, we might discern that God is speaking to us occasionally, but normally we follow the leading of our brain, our logic. Your statement suggests a frequent or even continual transfer of logic, which I don't see in the Bible - it's NITB (not in the Bible).<<<

Actually, we dare not “lean on our own understanding : for the very reason that we are to lean on the “understanding we have been given” (1John 5:20). We cannot “logic” our way to this understanding that can only be had by the reception of it as a gift. Then, having “this understanding” (by gift) we can then use our capacity for logic to “understand all things” (1 John 2:20).

>>>How does logic "work it's way from beginning to end, or from alpha to omega?" This makes no sense - it's nonsense. It's NITB<<<

All logic begins with a first principle and (hopes to) work(s) to a necessary conclusion.

>>>"There is only an "I"".<<<

All that was said prior to this statement here was a preamble to this, the first principle of the logical process that follows it.

>>>You just mentioned "YHWH", which means "I AM WHO I AM", which is God's name, so why would you now just call Him "I"? There's no one in the Bible called "I", so why would you distort His name like that, other than to make more complicated whatever it is you have to say about "I"? This way of speaking about Him is NITB.<<<

Again, as stated originally, simplicity is logic's best ally. This is the simplest beginning (of the logical process that follows), and it is incorruptible because it is TRUTH. God, Himself, refers to Himself this very way : Isaiah 52 : 6 (NKJV) “Therefore My people shall know My name; Therefore they shall know in that day That I am He who speaks: ‘Behold, it is I.’”

>>>""I" does not exist in "space" of any kind." This also makes no sense. But I will try to take a stab at it, nonetheless. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, which means there is space between them. God passed before Moses, so that Moses could "see His back", which implies that God occupied space. God appeared to Abraham as a man, so He occupied space. Your statement is NITB, so it's a statement of your own making.<<<

The logical thought process has not yet moved from first principle, and to properly understand this statement it must be kept in its context. See that there is no Creation (yet) to be considered, only the existence of God Himself and NOTHING OTHER. There is no confusion here and no (good) reason for it. The problem is the thought process here is not being allowed to run its course. It is being fought every step of the way. Because we both are Trinitarians this is not necessary.

>>>"There is no space." Again, nonsense, and NITB. Obviously, there IS space.<<<

Again, keeping in mind what was said before this statement, that is, keeping it in context, it simply means that the “space” we experience in Creation does not exist (yet). There is only the Being of God.

>>>"There is nowhere for God to speak His words into, that is not His own being."

This too, makes no sense, but I will try anyway. God spoke His words into the earth. The earth is NOT His own being. NITB.<<<

This misunderstanding is happening because, again, it is the result of running ahead of where the thought is. Nothing said has yet left the discussion of the first principle. There is no earth yet in what I am saying.

(See next post)

Otherness
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by Otherness » Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:35 pm

>>>"There is no space within which a distinct creation can exist." I exist in my home, which is a space. I am a distinct creation. NITB.<<<

The same is happening here. This is running ahead again to Creation rather than staying in thoughts about God before Creation.

>>>"Forget the evidence the material world imposes (dictates) through our five senses ... on our mind, the TRUTH is that we live and move and have our being in Him ....by the manifestations of His thoughts …" Does that mean that our five senses and evidence from them are NOT TRUE? No, it does not mean that.<<<

The ability of “our five senses” to sense TRUTH can only be restored by the filling of the Holy Spirit. This “body of death” that we must endure for this season of our sojourning here has its senses morbidly “dulled” so that there is no sensing that we actually live, and move, and have our being in God.

>>>God created everything by speaking a word, possibly a manifestation of His thoughts - we don't know- but He is NOT doing that NOW. At least, it's NITB.<<<

The Bible teaches (reveals) that Creation IS the result of God expressing His thoughts : speaking words. The Bible states (reveals) that Creation is, even NOW, held in being by this very same process (Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3). This isn't “possibly what's happening,” this IS what's happening.

>>>This is getting long and I'm really tired of refuting statements that are either NITB or make no sense, or both. So I will just list the remainder of your statements, with quick comments.<<<

Yes, this reply, too, can (will?) be criticized as tedious. But under the circumstances it's kinda called for.

>>>"How does God make room in His being for Creation?" Doesn't make sense. Not mentioned in the Bible. NITB.<<<

Acts 17: 28 “...for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.” God wants us to know that “where we exist” is (actually) nearer to Him than it is to the world. Thus, we find our true identity as created beings in Him, not in the world (John 1: 9). This “knowledge” is hidden in Christ (Colossians 2:3), so we must abide in Jesus to live in the reality of it.

>>>"Remember there is no act of creation yet." I guess I didn't get the memo. I thought creation already happened. NITB.<<<
Again, this jumps way ahead of the intended logical thought process here. In that process Creation is NOT YET.

>>>"...generates the reality of Otherness in His being." NITB<<<

Trinitarians believe (know?) that before (any act of) creation God is Father, Who is OTHER than the Son, and the Son IS...OTHER than the Father. It's in the Bible. The reality of “what OTHERNESS is” is IN God before Creation. Again, it's in the Bible.

>>>"The Trinity allows "otherness" to be real." NITB<<<

If “otherness” is not a real REALITY then there is no escape from pantheism if you believe the cosmology of Scripture. That is, God generated (generates) our reality by expressing His thoughts, and from instant to instant holds these thoughts in being. This is a SPIRITUAL phenomenon happening in the midst of His Being, and because it is SPIRITUAL there must be a SPIRITUAL reality in His Being that is OTHER than HIM, else – again – there is no escape from a pantheistic view of God vis-a-vis Creation.

>>>"God is Other Himself." NITB<<<

The Father is NOT – is OTHER than – the Son, the Son is NOT – is OTHER than – the Father. It's in the Bible.

>>>"The emptiness in the Being of God is the waters of Genesis." NITB Totally made up.<<<

Not so. This statement logically flows from the first principle of “I” being the only REALITY that (simply) IS! Obviously, God has made ROOM in His Being for Creation. That VOID teems with potentiality, and His Spirit hovers over it filling it with His expressed thoughts (words). Creation is “totally made up” by Him doing this.

>>>"It is here that His express thoughts take form - in that place that is not Him." Nonsense, NITB<<<

Creation has its being “in Him,” but it is NOT HIM. Only Trinitarianism has the rationale that explains this. All else leaves pantheism inevitable.

>>>"The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Father. It is this NOT-NESS that is the spiritual existence of the NOTHING, in which Creation is made." Nonsense, meaningless. NITB.<<<

No, it is pregnant with meaning! Scripture teaches that Creation was (is) made “ex nihilo,” and without a thoroughly spiritual explanation of this, from beginning to end man's search for ultimate truth will never get him closer than his theories. The Quantum Vacuum and Quantum Field Theory are getting man closer, but still no cigar! God's revelation establishes the fact that the “building blocks” of all Creation are His expressed thought (words), and man's search for ultimate reality from the ground up is gropping in the dark ever closer to this fact.

>>>"The Alpha (Father/Son) yields the Omega (Father/the Fullness of the Son,His Body.)"NITB<<<

This is exactly what the Bible teaches (Colossians 1:16).

(one more to follow)

Otherness
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by Otherness » Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:40 pm

>>>I count 18 NITB's!<<<

Well...18 zeros add up to zero (he said kinda snarkily).

>>>If you're attempting to spiritually edify anybody at all, you're going to fail if you don't stick to what the Bible says, instead of mystical concepts and supposed spiritual wisdom, which is extremely difficult to follow. Let me remind you that I was not the only one who had trouble comprehending your post. Darin, who is not a new believer, couldn't (easily) follow it either. In fact, I would guess that the majority of mature believers would not be able to follow your statements.<<<

I need no reminder of the difficulty of this, as it's been a spiritual labor for me. Our minds are mired in the mud from which we have been formed, and it sucks us in as we try to move forward (upward in our thinking). Thus all the denominations spawned by the “clear words of the Bible” because of the misplaced priorities of the readers. A clear reading of the Bible will yield a clear conscience leading to an organic unfeigned love, not only of the brethren, but of any “enemy” also. I don't want anyone “to follow” anything, or anyone, but Jesus. I offer what I have written to demonstrate the firmness of the foundation that has been laid IN HEAVEN for the Temple He is building : the Body of Christ.

We need to do a better job of following Jesus, of following His thoughts about what reality really is. That certainly is as much a labor of the mind as it is of the heart and the soul (Mark 12: 30). Just because what I write is hard to follow does not mean it does not follow from what the Scripture teaches, as you assert. It's HARD to “understand” The Trinity, but it is not impossible.

>>>So, right there, you are violating a scriptural principle (pretty much an apostolic command) that Paul, himself, advocated and modeled: to make the preaching of the gospel CLEAR, AS HE SAID HE OUGHT TO. Colossians 4:4 Even Jesus Himself was making sure that His disciples UNDERSTOOD His explanation of His words: Matthew 13:51<<<

Groan...I am not “violating a scriptural principle” by explicating the teaching of Scripture. Again, I know it's hard to think the way I'm thinking, but it's not wrong just because it's hard. I'm happy to labor here with you because it is scripturally clear to me, and it edifies my love not only of the brethren, but of the whole world that God loves so passionately.

>>>So, if you (and all of us) are to be more like Jesus, then why would you speak, using such confusing and more often than not, unbiblical statements? Paul said that whoever does not come with sound words (1 Timothy 6:3)(2 Timothy 1:15) is conceited and understands nothing. So why do you talk that way, when neither Paul or Jesus did, especially since you demonstrated that you can talk the normal way, like the rest of us?<<<

This characterization of what I wrote as “unbiblical” is inaccurate to say the least, and it is, in return (to say the least) necessary to “talk the way I talk” to say the things that I say. Of course I “can talk the normal way,” but I can also talk the way it is necessary to talk about the things I'm talking about. Words are “sound” (reliable) not because they are a rote repetition of “bible speak,” but because they are congruent with, and faithful to, what the Bible is speaking about. Were this not so no one should write or speak any other way then directly quoting the exact text of Scripture without any other words added or subtracted...period.

Consider that if God made it possible to “understand” The Trinity it might be HARD to put it into words – HARD, but not necessarily impossible. And those words would have to compare spiritual things with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13).to even speak about such a thing. He reveals His mysteries and secrets to those who know that they are but little children being created in Christ to grow up in His love for them, and in loving others with the love He has for them.

In that love, His peace be with you.

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dwight92070
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:52 pm

Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, could have spoken the way you do, but He obviously chose not to. In fact, He could have blown you and me and all men away with speech that is true, but incomprehensible, because of His infinite wisdom, but He chose not to. He chose to use the common vernacular used in Israel during His time on earth. And when that speech is translated into any other earthly language, the result is the common vernacular used by the people speaking those languages. In His wisdom, He preferred to use language that His listening and later reading audience would very quickly understand.

We are supposed to be more and more like Christ. If He spoke so that the average man (and even many, but not all children) could understand Him, shouldn't we be speaking like that as well? Up til now, apparently, you don't see any necessity to be like Christ in this way.

Paul saw that necessity to follow Christ in his (or His) speech.

Colossians 4:4 - "... praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned; THAT I MAY MAKE IT CLEAR IN THE WAY I OUGHT TO SPEAK."

If Paul said that he ought to speak the gospel clearly, then I think that I should speak it clearly too and yes, YOU SHOULD TOO. In fact, no Christian is exempt from the scriptural mandate to speak the gospel clearly. It literally could be a matter of life and death - eternal life or eternal death.

Paul also said "Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ." I Corinthians 11:1 No Christian is exempt from obeying this command, given by the apostle. If Paul imitated Christ, by speaking the gospel clearly, then when we speak the gospel clearly, we are imitating Paul and Christ. If we make the gospel confusing and hard to grasp, we are not imitating Paul or Christ.

You even admitted that much of your speech is hard to understand. So if you want to imitate Paul and Christ, you have to change the way you are "expressing your gift." If you can explain your message in simple terms (Jesus did it, Paul did it, Matthew did it, Mark did it, Luke did it, John did it, Peter did it, James did it, Jude did it), then you ought to (Colossians 4:4 - "in the way I ought to speak).

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dwight92070
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:59 pm

By the way, your "explanation" and defense of your words, is just as confusing and nonsensical as your original words. Sorry, but it's true.

dizerner

Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dizerner » Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:27 am

Sorry!

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dwight92070
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:05 pm

It's true!

dizerner

Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dizerner » Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:22 pm

Without the Holy Spirit it doesn't matter how many words you say and how articulate you are.

The Gospel is not mere mental information you plug into your logical brain.

Otherness
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by Otherness » Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:46 am

Dwight, my dear brother / inquisitor,

There is a difference between the proclamation of the Gospel (to the outside world), and an explication of a profound and fundamental, albeit thought to be but derivative (and thus disputed), “element” of it. The vast majority of believers just accept the Trinity because “it's something that Christians are supposed to believe.” Very many see the Trinity as clearly revealed in Scripture though they can't quite “put it all together” for themselves. Then there are those sincere believers in, and lovers of, Jesus who also “can't put it together,” and, therefore, conclude that the reason is...it's simply not in the Scripture. That's the issue in a nutshell.

To consistently use the term “mystical” as a pejorative is to “forget” that there is a strong and pervasive presence of it in the Bible. Although, it is more accurate to describe these “mystical” themes and events as spiritual realities intruding into our everyday natural lives. In any case, whether the word mystical or spiritual is used it is essentially the same reality that is being talked about. I simply am not afraid to use either one because what is being talked about is a Pure Spiritual Reality : God Himself.

It really is impossible to talk any other way when talking about God as He is in Himself. He is Spirit and any discussion about Him as He is in Himself is going to have to be sublimely spiritual, comparing spiritual things with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13). The Trinity is God as He is in Himself, and in order to express an “understanding” of this it might just come across as “mystical.” You don't like this, and you don't think it's right to do it....I disagree. Is it hard to learn to speak like this? Yeah...ok. So it's hard. Is it therefore wrong? No.

Please note, as stated in earlier posts referencing the part Natural Revelation plays in this, the discoveries of hard science are causing even hardened scientists to wax mystical in their descriptions of what they have discovered about the “magical” (per John Wheeler) workings of nature at its deepest depths. (https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01 ... ussion.pdf).

Listening to these “preachers of naturalism” trying desperately not to be too “mystical,” and failing, gives comfort to those who know that God formed (forms) this world simply by speaking. Yes, they need to think “mystically,” they can't help it, and anyone speaking of God as He is in Himself must learn how to speak spiritually, comparing spiritual things with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13). The natural world is, in its essence spiritual, and therefore evokes mystical thoughts as hard science probes it at its depths. As I said, we're forced to talk this way because the depths and heights of reality disappear into God.

So...my long reply a few days ago pointed out how your “not in the Bible” complaints are misplaced. Since you don't understand what I'm saying you have to consider that what you call “weeds” (tares) really could be wheat if your understanding of what I'm saying grew.

Be patient. Our wonderful Father works His good work (of forming the Body of Christ) at the speed of patience.

In any case I'm willing to try my dear brother, and if not...well, your still my dear brother.

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dwight92070
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Re: Who is the Alpha & Omega?

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:44 am

dizerner wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:22 pm
Without the Holy Spirit it doesn't matter how many words you say and how articulate you are.
The Gospel is not mere mental information you plug into your logical brain.
Are you saying that I do not have the Holy Spirit? I do have the Holy Spirit. 1 John 2:20 - "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know." 1 John 3:24 - " ...We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." 1 Corinthians 3:16 - "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" 1 Corinthians 6:19 - "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, Whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?" 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 - "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, Who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge."

Christians are not robots, where we cannot say or do anything ourselves, where it's only when the Spirit moves upon us or in us that we can do anything or speak anything. Calvinists think that way too, that we cannot do or say anything unless God moves us or leads us to do or say something. That way, EVERYTHING IS FROM GOD, nothing is from us. EVERYTHING we do or say is God's will, according to them. That is a deception and a serious bondage.

Jesus said, "Apart from Me, you can do nothing." I believe that, but it is God who has made humans autonomous, self-governing, not just Christians. Apart from Jesus, we would not have free will, but He gave all humans free will. As believers, we also have self-control, a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
As Chuck Smith once said, "God, in His Sovreignty, has chosen to give us free will."

I assume that you think that you have the Holy Spirit? If you think that we are remote-controlled robots or puppets on a string, with the Holy Spirit or God ALONE dictating our every action or our every word, you may have the Holy Spirit, but you are also in deception and bondage.

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