Will We See God, Jesus, or Both?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Homer
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Will We See God, Jesus, or Both?

Post by Homer » Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:45 pm

Probably about three decades ago I was talking to a young engineer at work. He was a Christian, very intelligent, and also a hyper-Calvinist. Somehow we began talking about seeing God in the afterlife. He maintained that when we see God it will be Jesus we see. At the time, I disagreed with him. Mulling this over recently I began to think he might have been right.

Consider the following scriptures:

John 1:18
New American Standard Bible 1995
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

1 Timothy 1:17
New American Standard Bible 1995
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:12-16
New American Standard Bible 1995
12 Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Colossians 1:15
New American Standard Bible 1995
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

1 John 4:12
New American Standard Bible 1995
12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

But then consider these:

Matthew 5:8
New American Standard Bible 1995
8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Genesis 32:30
New American Standard Bible 1995
30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.”

Job 19:26-27
New American Standard Bible 1995
26 “Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
27 Whom I myself shall behold,
And whom my eyes will see and not another.

My heart faints within me!

The foregoing scriptures appear to be contradictory. How are they to be reconciled? The Trinity doctrine appears to me to be the best explanation. The statements about God being invisible, having never been seen, can not be seen, etc. seem plain enough. Yet we read of God in some form appearing to man (theophanies) in the scriptures. If God is omnipresent, as appears to be indicated in the scriptures, then how can He at the same time appear localized to man? This would not be difficult to harmonize with a trinitarian concept of God.

dizerner

Re: Will We See God, Jesus, or Both?

Post by dizerner » Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:10 pm

We will see the Trinity.

No man being able to see God and live is a type expressing original sin, our inability to be pure enough for God.

Christ was a real man who said he saw God uniquely in his glory.

We are hidden in Christ, the cleft of the Rock, and behold God from this place covered by grace.

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darinhouston
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Re: Will We See God, Jesus, or Both?

Post by darinhouston » Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:56 pm

The passages in the Old Testament can easily be rectified by understanding the cultural context and the manner of speech. For example, in Judges 6, the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon and when doing so declare that the Lord was with them. Some might say this is a theophany, but it is more likely an issue of ancient view of agency (by proxy). Judges 13 also has an example where Manoah declared they had "seen God' immediately after he realized it was an angel. This is fairly common.

Apart from these passages, however, there seems to be a logical flaw in your consideration - the fact that scripture talks of people having never seen God does not necessarily imply that either (1) no one would ever in the future do so; or (2) that there wasn't some form in which people could see God and still live. In addition to agency, we see God (though imperfectly) in other people living out their lives by the Spirit, we see God (in perfect representation) in the life of Jesus and in other ways. Also, Scripture essentially concerns itself with the here and now physical reality - it does not really speak to whether and how we might see God in the afterlife in our justified and resurrected states. If God is spirit, I don't know what that looks like in our resurrected states.

I would also suggest that if we go by what scripture does say about the proximity or location of Jesus with respect to God, he is said to be at his right side - though in "visions" and likely not meant as a literal physical relationship (since heaven isn't in our time-space continuum), if we do accept things literally and from our physical context, the only description we do have suggests that we would see them both together (and, incidentally, that they are distinct from one another).

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dwight92070
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Re: Will We See God, Jesus, or Both?

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:15 pm

I think we will see them as they were seen in Revelation, separate and distinct, and yet both receiving equal praise and worship, as is only worthy of God.
I'm not sure how the Holy Spirit fits in there, but we know that He too, is God.

Otherness
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Re: Will We See God, Jesus, or Both?

Post by Otherness » Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:07 pm

Homer>>>Probably about three decades ago I was talking to a young engineer at work. He was a Christian, very intelligent, and also a hyper-Calvinist. Somehow we began talking about seeing God in the afterlife. He maintained that when we see God it will be Jesus we see. At the time, I disagreed with him. Mulling this over recently I began to think he might have been right.<<<

Darinhouston>>>I would also suggest that if we go by what scripture does say about the proximity or location of Jesus with respect to God, he is said to be at his right side - though in "visions" and likely not meant as a literal physical relationship (since heaven isn't in our time-space continuum), if we do accept things literally and from our physical context, the only description we do have suggests that we would see them both together (and, incidentally, that they are distinct from one another).<<<

We have to be careful how we understand the concept of “seeing.” In our present natural fleshly existence we too easily default to thinking “sensually,” as though our (physical) eyes are the primary means of “seeing.” This is a too superficial and constraining vantage point, and is a (severe) handicap when it comes to comprehending the deep things of God (1 Corinthians 2:10). Remember that Jesus saw Nathanael when he was under the fig tree, that He saw him (1 Corinthians 2:11) in the “deep things” of his spirit [just as He saw the “deep things” of the woman at the well] as can be seen in Nathanael's reaction.

The quality of “seeing” here is parallel to the quality of knowing that is delineated in 1 Corinthians 13:12, “...now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.” One might even say, I will see God when I shall see just as also I am seen. To see from God's perspective, as God sees, is to see God.

Were Jesus (Who is in us) to, even for an instant, in intimate fellowship, look out through our eyes...our eyes would fully open (our “seeing” would be according to that “which God hath prepared for them that love him” (1 Corinthians 2:9).
Last edited by Otherness on Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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darinhouston
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Re: Will We See God, Jesus, or Both?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:38 pm

Otherness wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:07 pm
We have to be careful how we understand the concept of “seeing.” In our present natural fleshly existence we too easily default to thinking “sensually,” as though our (physical) eyes are the pri- mary means of “seeing.” This is a too superficial and constraining vantage point, and is a (severe) handicap when it comes to comprehending the deep things of God (1 Corinthians 2:10). Remember that Jesus saw Phillip when he was under the fig tree, that He saw him (1 Corinthians 2:11) in the “deep things” of his spirit [just as He saw the “deep things” of the woman at the well] as can be seen in Phillip's reaction.

The quality of “seeing” here is parallel to the quality of knowing that is delineated in 1 Corinthians 13:12, “...now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.” One might even say, I will see God when I shall see just as also I am seen. To see from God's perspective, as God sees, is to see God.

Were Jesus (Who is in us) to, even for an instant, in intimate fellowship, look out through our eyes...our eyes would fully open (our “seeing” would be according to that “which God hath prepared for them that love him” (1 Corinthians 2:9).
True enough, and I think I alluded to that in my response. Even still, when details like that are given and we are seeking to answer a question not directly provided otherwise, it's at least the most probative information we do have. Clearly Jesus wasn't literally sitting at God's right hand and there was almost certainly not a literal wooden or stone or bejeweled throne of physical substance, but visions like this connote truth and I think it's fair to say it conveys something about the relationship of Jesus to the one seated on the throne and their relationship to one another in a way that makes some sense to our physical existence.

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