The First Act of God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Paidion
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by Paidion » Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 pm

Amazingly enough, the wife of a Baptist pastor at a Baptist church I used to attend, also believed that Jesus is the Father.
I asked her, "According to the scripture, Jesus and His Father talked to each other. So how could they be the same person?"

She replied to me, "D______, haven't you ever talked to yourself?"
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Homer
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by Homer » Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:17 pm

Well,well,well. Let's consider verse seven also:

Isaiah 9:6-7
New American Standard Bible 1995
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.


I would say there is no possibility Isaiah here refers to any but our Messiah. No mere man could fulfill Isaiah's prophecy when verse seven is considered.
There you have it! Jesus is not only the Mighty God but also the Everlasting Father!

I dare say even a teenager would come to that conclusion.
Well, not any teenager, just the ones who can read without bias.

Was Isaiah lying, just mistaken, false prophet, or what? Perhaps his words are too lofty for us ordinary folks to understand. Please explain for us what he meant.

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darinhouston
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by darinhouston » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:25 pm

Well, Homer, we've discussed this one numerous times. Start here and Paidion's own translation follows....

https://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 200#p81200

Do you really believe Jesus is the Eternal Father?

dwight92070
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:35 pm

Paidion wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 pm
Amazingly enough, the wife of a Baptist pastor at a Baptist church I used to attend, also believed that Jesus is the Father.
I asked her, "According to the scripture, Jesus and His Father talked to each other. So how could they be the same person?"

She replied to me, "D______, haven't you ever talked to yourself?"
Dwight - God said, "Let US make man in OUR image" and "Let US go down and confuse their language". So was God talking to Himself?
Dwight - Obviously, Paidion, you have made the mistake to think that God's essence is just like ours. If we talk to someone, that someone cannot be us. But if the Father talks to the Son, they are still One in essence. This totally fits within the Trinity doctrine.

dwight92070
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:45 pm

So I asked my 26 yr. old son to read John 1:1-18, which he did. His response?

"Jesus is becoming a man."
"Jesus is God."
"Jesus is also the Son of God."

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darinhouston
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by darinhouston » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:34 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:45 pm
So I asked my 26 yr. old son to read John 1:1-18, which he did. His response?

"Jesus is becoming a man."
"Jesus is God."
"Jesus is also the Son of God."
Ask him who Sophia is in Proverbs 8 using the very same approach

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Paidion
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by Paidion » Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:17 pm

Whether Jesus is "God" in some sense, is a debatable question, as has been obvious from the discussions in this forum.
But that Jesus is the Father, is clearly false. As Jesus said:

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. (John 6:38)

If Jesus were the Father, how could his will differ from that of himself?

Also, concerning the passage in Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The Hebrew from which modern translations (such as the above) are made, are of a more recent origin.
The Septuagint translation from Hebrew to Greek originates from a more ancient form of Hebrew, and is likely to express what was actually written. The Septuagint does not have "everlasting father" but "father of the age to come".
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dwight92070
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:40 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:34 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:45 pm
So I asked my 26 yr. old son to read John 1:1-18, which he did. His response?

"Jesus is becoming a man."
"Jesus is God."
"Jesus is also the Son of God."
Ask him who Sophia is in Proverbs 8 using the very same approach
Dwight - First of all, you're changing the subject. My point was that most any rational person CAN LOOK AT JOHN 1, and see that it says clearly that Jesus is God. Second, the name "Sophia" does not appear anywhere in the Bible, so why would you introduce an extra-Biblical name, and "assign" it to Proverbs 8, when it's not even there? Third, the Septuagint has been tampered with by the Jews, after the time of Christ, so it is not a reliable source.

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darinhouston
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:04 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:40 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:34 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:45 pm
So I asked my 26 yr. old son to read John 1:1-18, which he did. His response?

"Jesus is becoming a man."
"Jesus is God."
"Jesus is also the Son of God."
Ask him who Sophia is in Proverbs 8 using the very same approach
Dwight - First of all, you're changing the subject. My point was that most any rational person CAN LOOK AT JOHN 1, and see that it says clearly that Jesus is God. Second, the name "Sophia" does not appear anywhere in the Bible, so why would you introduce an extra-Biblical name, and "assign" it to Proverbs 8, when it's not even there? Third, the Septuagint has been tampered with by the Jews, after the time of Christ, so it is not a reliable source.
Not at all - but, neither does the term "Word" -- it's Logos in greek as you know. So, ask about Hakhmah, if you prefer the Hebrew. But, I presume your son read John 1 in English, so let's let him read Proverbs 8 in English. But I'm not changing the subject at all. Proverbs 8 is as relevant to John 1 as Genesis 1 is and is very similar in style and purpose. Does your son see hakhmah as a "person"?

dwight92070
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Re: The First Act of God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:23 am

darinhouston wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:04 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:40 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:34 am


Ask him who Sophia is in Proverbs 8 using the very same approach
Dwight - First of all, you're changing the subject. My point was that most any rational person CAN LOOK AT JOHN 1, and see that it says clearly that Jesus is God. Second, the name "Sophia" does not appear anywhere in the Bible, so why would you introduce an extra-Biblical name, and "assign" it to Proverbs 8, when it's not even there? Third, the Septuagint has been tampered with by the Jews, after the time of Christ, so it is not a reliable source.
Not at all - but, neither does the term "Word" -- it's Logos in greek as you know. So, ask about Hakhmah, if you prefer the Hebrew. But, I presume your son read John 1 in English, so let's let him read Proverbs 8 in English. But I'm not changing the subject at all. Proverbs 8 is as relevant to John 1 as Genesis 1 is and is very similar in style and purpose. Does your son see hakhmah as a "person"?
Dwight - Actually "Word" does appear in the Bible. It is the English translation of the Greek "logos". So what Hebrew word translates to "Sophia" in the English, regarding Proverbs 8?

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