How Many Gods are there?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:52 am

I admit that I do not have a clear understanding of the "classic"Trinitarian doctrine, as you put it. I try to make judgment calls based on what I read in the scripture, so if my "call" on this differs from the classic belief, then I am open to changing my understanding of the Trinity, if I can see it in the scripture. I remember a simple formula for the Trinity, which goes something like this:

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God

The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit
The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is not the Son or the Father

However, Isaiah 9 says that Jesus is the Everlasting Father.
Also, 2 Corinthians 3:17 says that the "Lord is the Spirit".

These verses seem to contradict the Trinity doctrine, so I will definitely look into this more.

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dwight92070
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Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:01 pm

I just got off the phone with Steve on his show, where he gave an excellent teaching and explanation of this apparent contradiction.
Steve pointed out that, in one sense, the persons of the Trinity are separate or distinct - yet, in another sense, they are one. He also said that that fact right there, is INCLUDED IN THE USUAL DEFINITION AND UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRINITY.

He also cited a clear example that the Apostle John gives us in John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (different or separate), and the Word was God (the same, or one). Steve added that to attempt to make it simpler - by saying that no person in the Trinity is the other, is to ignore and deny the references in the Bible, which state the opposite.

A.W. Tozer put it this way: The 3 persons in the Trinity are INSEPARABLE and CONSUBSTANTIAL (of the same substance). So, in one sense, you can't have one without the others; in another sense they are 3 separate persons.

So when the Son died, it appears that the Father and the Holy Spirit died.

Revelation 1:17-18 - "... I am the first and the last (the Father), and the living One; AND I WAS DEAD, ..."

Acts 20:28 - " ...to shepherd the church of GOD, which He purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD."

Who said that Paul never called Jesus "God"? It's right there in Acts 20:28.

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Paidion
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Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by Paidion » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:32 pm

Dwight, you wrote:Acts 20:28 - " ...to shepherd the church of GOD, which He purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD."
Who said that Paul never called Jesus "God"? It's right there in Acts 20:28.
Firstly, Paul didn't write the book of Acts. Luke wrote it.
Secondly, the Church is always called "The Church of God" in the New Testament, and never "The Church of Christ."
Thirdly, and most significantly, saying that Jesus purchased the Church of God with his own blood is NOT tantamount to saying that Jesus is God.
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:09 pm

Paidion wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:32 pm
Dwight, you wrote:Acts 20:28 - " ...to shepherd the church of GOD, which He purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD."
Who said that Paul never called Jesus "God"? It's right there in Acts 20:28.
Firstly, Paul didn't write the book of Acts. Luke wrote it.

Dwight - Luke was quoting PAUL in that verse, so it was Paul speaking, NOT LUKE.

Secondly, the Church is always called "The Church of God" in the New Testament, and never "The Church of Christ."

Dwight -Jesus said, "... upon this rock I will build MY CHURCH (that is the CHURCH OF CHRIST, since Christ is speaking)". Matthew 16:18

Thirdly, and most significantly, saying that Jesus purchased the Church of God with his own blood is NOT tantamount to saying that Jesus is God.

Dwight - That's not what Paul said - you are misquoting it. The "HE" refers back to God, not Christ - "... to shepherd the church of God, which HE (God) purchased with His (God's) own blood.

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darinhouston
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Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by darinhouston » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:12 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:09 pm
Paidion wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:32 pm
Dwight, you wrote:Acts 20:28 - " ...to shepherd the church of GOD, which He purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD."
Who said that Paul never called Jesus "God"? It's right there in Acts 20:28.
Firstly, Paul didn't write the book of Acts. Luke wrote it.

Dwight - Luke was quoting PAUL in that verse, so it was Paul speaking, NOT LUKE.

Secondly, the Church is always called "The Church of God" in the New Testament, and never "The Church of Christ."

Dwight -Jesus said, "... upon this rock I will build MY CHURCH (that is the CHURCH OF CHRIST, since Christ is speaking)". Matthew 16:18

Thirdly, and most significantly, saying that Jesus purchased the Church of God with his own blood is NOT tantamount to saying that Jesus is God.

Dwight - That's not what Paul said - you are misquoting it. The "HE" refers back to God, not Christ - "... to shepherd the church of God, which HE (God) purchased with His (God's) own blood.
Fair enough that these are the words of Paul, but (we've discussed this before) the text says "blood of his own." His own refers to Christ. Christ is His own. It is Christ's blood. Though not necessarily construed one way or the other, saying "His own blood" has a much different context in most eyes than "blood of his own". At best it's ambiguous, but I believe he's referring to the blood of Christ. It's silly to split hairs over whether the church is God's church or Christ's church. It is both because if it's Christ's, it's also God's. That does not equate Christ and God any more than my son speaking of my house as "his house" means my son is me.

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dwight92070
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Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:04 am

I don't think it's silly. I see Paidon's attempt to make it look like Paul is referring to the blood of Jesus, not the blood of God. We know that Jesus (the Word) shed His blood on the cross. But the Word IS GOD, so God shed His blood also. Just like the church is both Christ's and God's, so the blood is both Christ's and God's. No, it is NOT like your house and your son's house. The Father and His Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE, unlike any human relationship. If your son is dying, you are not also dying - although you may feel that you are dying from sorrow. But in this case, God became a man, and then He (God) died for us.

In Isaiah 44:6 it says - "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts: 'I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.'"

But in Revelation 1:17-18 and in Revelation 2:8, One who identifies Himself as the first and the last, says THAT HE WAS DEAD, BUT HE CAME BACK TO LIFE! We know this is Jesus speaking because Revelation 22:16 tells us it is. Also, we know Jesus died and came back to life. But we also know that "the first and the last" is God, so when Jesus died and came back to life, so did God.

So GOD WAS DEAD, BUT HE CAME BACK TO LIFE?

So how is this possible? I don't believe any man can explain it. But if God had not done what He did, we would all be lost.

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darinhouston
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Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by darinhouston » Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:53 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:04 am
But the Word IS GOD
You seem happy to ask "in what context is Jesus the Father" but take this very obscure and poetic (and to all academics and theologians mysterious) statement as clear unequivocal proof of an existential identity of the highly philosophical concept of the "Word" as God Himself. (especially considering the word here is more like "divinity" or "god-like" or something along those lines compared with something less opaque like Yahweh).

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dwight92070
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Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:00 pm

I don't think it's that complicated. The Word which became flesh is the preincarnate Christ, which, according to John, was in the beginning, was with God, and was God.
What purpose would there be for John to write obscure, mysterious, and highly complex words, which he would know, would be difficult for most people to understand? No purpose at all. On the contrary, I think John is ACTUALLY SIMPLIFYING the reality of the Father and the Son being One, so that we can, as much as is possible, UNDERSTAND IT. And I think I do.

My question in my previous post, "How is this possible?" was about "How is it possible for God to die?" I don't have an answer for that one and don't believe any of us do.

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darinhouston
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Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by darinhouston » Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:44 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:00 pm
I don't think it's that complicated. The Word which became flesh is the preincarnate Christ, which, according to John, was in the beginning, was with God, and was God.
What purpose would there be for John to write obscure, mysterious, and highly complex words, which he would know, would be difficult for most people to understand? No purpose at all. On the contrary, I think John is ACTUALLY SIMPLIFYING the reality of the Father and the Son being One, so that we can, as much as is possible, UNDERSTAND IT. And I think I do.

My question in my previous post, "How is this possible?" was about "How is it possible for God to die?" I don't have an answer for that one and don't believe any of us do.
I've mentioned this before -- perhaps because he was writing into a milieu in which this was not so obscure (or was familiar within such obscurity). There was a large pagan influence in Hellenistic Judaism at the time and the "LOGOS" and other notions such as "the Light" and other themes used purposefully by John in his unique gospel were central to the theology (and cosmology) at the time. His epistles are well recognized for being anti-gnostic with the same mission. I believe he was possibly writing his gospel in terms to grab that same group's attention consistent with their understanding and teachings but to direct those flawed teachings to the real light and real word, Jesus. This would explain why his gospel is so different from the synoptics (something that has befuddled many scholars).

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darinhouston
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Re: How Many Gods are there?

Post by darinhouston » Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:46 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:00 pm
My question in my previous post, "How is this possible?" was about "How is it possible for God to die?" I don't have an answer for that one and don't believe any of us do.
The unitarian has a simple answer -- God didn't die.

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