Was God Love?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Homer
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Re: Was God Love?

Post by Homer » Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:40 am

Thanks Paidion. Posted at the end of a long day and when I got up this am I saw my mistake right away.

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darinhouston
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Re: Was God Love?

Post by darinhouston » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:22 pm

Homer wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:40 am
Thanks Paidion. Posted at the end of a long day and when I got up this am I saw my mistake right away.
I hate it when that happens...

commonsense
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Re: Was God Love?

Post by commonsense » Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:13 pm

[/quote]

I'm glad you pointed that out. For Paul wrote:

Titus 2:14 (Our Saviour Jesus Christ) who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
[/quote]

Paidion, I agree!! Jesus also says, "For this reason I was sent, to bear witness to the truth."

This is also why Israel- The Son of God- was born, as a special people, a people for God's own possession. They were brought into the world through Abraham to be a light and teach the ways of the one true God, so that all who hear and obey might be saved.

The reason they say that Jesus was the only begotten Son is because he was of the Israel that was born of the Spirit/ begotten by God.

Your sin ALREADY condemns you, meaning : you reap what you sow. And so it's said that the Son did not come to condemn, but to save.

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dwight92070
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Re: Was God Love?

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:15 pm

As everyone here knows, I do believe in the Trinity. But regarding this topic, even if God had not yet created any other beings or humans, He knew that that was part of His plan and that He planned, out of His great love for mankind, to send His Son to save and redeem us.

Ephesians 1:3- Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely besowed on us in the Beloved.

So He was love, long before Creation, whether there was a Trinity or not, and I believe that there was.

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Homer
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Re: Was God Love?

Post by Homer » Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:53 pm

Dwight wrote:
So He was love, long before Creation, whether there was a Trinity or not, and I believe that there was.
Quote from here:
https://www.preceptaustin.org/love-agape
Agape may involve emotion, but it must always involve action.
Is the above statement true or false? If God was love, prior to His creating anything, then the statement must be false, for agape love requires an object. However, if God is a triune God, there would have been love among the Trinity.

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darinhouston
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Re: Was God Love?

Post by darinhouston » Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:41 pm

Homer wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:53 pm
Dwight wrote:
So He was love, long before Creation, whether there was a Trinity or not, and I believe that there was.
Quote from here:
https://www.preceptaustin.org/love-agape
Agape may involve emotion, but it must always involve action.
Is the above statement true or false? If God was love, prior to His creating anything, then the statement must be false, for agape love requires an object. However, if God is a triune God, there would have been love among the Trinity.
I think you're reaching too far to apply modern definitions to support an existential/philosophical theory about God. But, just going with it for a moment... even with that definition, it specifically states that the term connotes "sacrifice." In what way did sacrifice occur in the "godhead" itself? Is that even possible? If so, then the ultimate sacrifice and ultimate act of agape love we learn in Scripture (not a modern definition, but a scriptural one) is to lay down one's life for another. How was that embodied/"acted" out in the eternal godhead?

I just think it's a mistake to use a term which only has meaning in connection with an aspect of God's character specifically relevant to God's dealing with us to draw inferences on his existential ontological state in all eternity.

Putting the term "agape" aside - even his "holiness" and many other "essential character qualities" have relevance "to us" only in reference to others. But, using your argument in connection with holiness, for example, there would have to be some "other" beings in all eternity besides any of the persons of the godhead for such an understanding of "holiness" (or existential "other") to make sense in eternity. Other "persons of the trinity" can't perform that function because in Trinitarian theology they are all equally God when it comes to holiness.

In short, I just don't think this rationale is a sensible avenue for proving or supporting this theory.

Every adjective or term we use to "describe" God necessarily is relative in a sense to our reality. Since he is so completely and utterly "other," there is really no way to understand him otherwise. But, it's a mistake to really try and understand his existential ontological reality in all eternity in light of those descriptions. They are helpful in understanding how he relates to us and to sort of understand his character as it compares with our own. But, I think you are trying to get them to accomplish more than they are capable of doing.

Seeker
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Re: Was God Love?

Post by Seeker » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:16 pm

Homer wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:58 pm
It has been argued here that Jesus died on the cross to enable us to be better persons, never perfect, but better. I deny this view. I believe that Jesus suffered and died the death we all deserve, not just because we are all sinners; we are actually criminal lawbreakers of God's laws.

it has been argued that God would not have His sinless Son to suffer and die for sinners any more than a man would unjustly punish a good son for the behavior of his bad sons. How would it be any better for a father to punish his good son so that his bad sons' behavior would improve? That makes no sense.

God is love, "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.... This, I believe, is the greatest demonstration of love ever known. When I was a young boy I was talking to my father, I do not know what I said that prompted his response. But he assured me that he would give up his life for me if needed. I recall being incredulous that he would do that and realized how much He loved me. However, I doubt he would have given his life for an enemy. Think of it. The human father, at least most I think, would give up his life for his child. Yet at the cross it is reversed! The Father gives His Son's life for even His enemies. The Father knows that He will resurrect His Son, but still He sees the suffering, the agony, the feeling of abandonment and then the death of the Son. And the Son, who has emptied Himself of omniscience and omnipotence, suffers and dies for us, knowing only by faith that He will be raised from the dead. Perfect faith! Perfect love!

It is difficult to make sense of apart from the Trinity or Binity. With the Trinity I see God internalizing the great debt, bearing the punishment in His Son. It is rather common to think of our sin incurring a debt to be paid. But who got paid? Certainly not Satan, who is in no position to require anything. The Father paid the debt through life and death the Son!
God's goal is heart change, for us to be brought to him, by fires of hell if need be, purified, having borne whatever pain necessary to turn us away from our sin.

According to your view however, God created all of humanity to become enemies of his. We sin, he looks upon us with anger, building up wrath. But he turns toward an innocent man and pours out that wrath. The suffering of innocent Jesus satisfies him. Now therefore he smiles upon us.

The absurdities that can evolve when we allow tradition to develop a mind of its own! Thank goodness the bible doesn't support such a view. God doesn't demand payment for sin at all. Not in the sense your view describes. Much less substitutionary payment. He allows us to go through the consequences of our sin however long and severely, as necessary to turn our hearts truly to God.

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darinhouston
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Re: Was God Love?

Post by darinhouston » Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:11 am

Homer wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:58 pm
But he assured me that he would give up his life for me if needed. I recall being incredulous that he would do that and realized how much He loved me. However, I doubt he would have given his life for an enemy.
I can make sense of it without a trinity or binity, but that's not the point I want to discuss here. I have heard the above stated often, and I have reflected on it often as a dad. I ask you if you might consider us not as enemies in the purist sense, but more in the "prodigal" sense. As I consider my teenage son, he is often not lovable and often acts in a sense as an "enemy" of my desires for him, the attitude towards me that he should show a dad. But, as I consider some of my friends and how some of them are quite literally estranged from their sons, I wonder if this isn't a more apt description of our relationship as sinners to our Heavenly Father. I do think in such a case that I would still gladly and freely lay down my life for my son even "while" is an enemy of that same sort and do so figuratively often when I am "loving the unloveable" teen. I have learned so much of my own relationship with the Father through raising children. I think this is probably how God sees us and -- not to take anything away from the sacrificial love of the Father or of Christ, but I do think most of us would lay down our lives for that sort of enemy. And IF we had no other obligations or relationships, that we might even lay down our lives for a true enemy, even a stranger, if we truly believed it would make a difference for them and the world. I believe God would have us have this heart and mind, and while we are not God, I do believe we have the capacity through his Spirit in us to have this heart and mind and that He will equip us for such or he wouldn't expect it of us.

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